Lighting LED Industry Deceptions

[GCase]

There are LED name brand websites popping up all over. Anyone of us without any formal electronic/lighting background can
start an LED company--almost overnite. If you look at nearly all LED's one will note the same components. Often the shape is
similar, as are fan cut outs, hanging posts etc. The hanging posts tell the story--they are universal parts used by nearly every
manufacture in China and US suppliers.

They are using universal parts. Anyone can now order LED components and anyone can have them assembled in China. All
LED bulbs, components and fixture are made in China (as are most electronics). That is all diodes even the ones promoted
as US--made--http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cree_Inc. http://www.superbrightleds.com/cat/component-leds/


There are only a few scientific based LED manufactures who design and engineer their own LEDs. One does pay the price,
however, they are all transparent and provide technical data--pars, actual wattage and other information to make decisions.

Here is one professional scientifically oriented US based (everything made in China) LED manufacture. Compare this site to
others and one will note the distinction--http://www.illumitex.com/

Do any of these look familiar--http://www.made-in-china.com

There are three or more UFO style LED that are sold under many brands and some brandless--same color, same wattage etc.
Below is an article from a small LED maker in Canada. He gives an over view of the industry and explicitly states the biggest
deception in the industry--namely, deceptive wattage claims.

http://heliosgrowlights.hubpages.com/hub/The-Truth-Behind-the-LED-Grow-Light-Industry

Apparently, in order to get a longer LED life span they are only powered at 60 to 80% of capacity. Very few suppliers are
transparent about this fact. They are consciously engaging in deceptive trade practices. Every US state and fed law protects
consumers--as does, other agencies charged with trade issues.

Here is just one example representing nearly ever supplier of LED's. http://growace.com/catalog/product/print/id/632

And this company is taking the deception further with this note on spec bottom---** Light ratings are based on the number of diodes in the unit multiplied by the chip wattage.

Right--why not tell the consumer the true wattage!

Look at the "bold" display of wattage etc. and the descriptions. The fact is it is disingenuous. Not one of the LEDs operates at the stated wattage. One is paying--in effect, for
unused wattage. And it is a big loss. To top it off the concept that LED wattage equates with HPS wattage is a boldfaced lie. If
the wattage is stated as 300 and it is compared to a 600 watt HPS such is a false premise. The LED runs at only around 180
to 200 watts and not 300. So it is comparable to a 300-350 watt HPS and not a 600 watt. Also, the wattage tell most of the story
but not the whole story. Different color LEDs are programmed to produce different power levels. In general a 3 watt bulb is
powered at 1.4 to 1.8 or so. Also, PAR is rarely if ever mentioned--because, they don't know. They are just selling wattage at an inflated price. The graphs and science based charts are just that--anyone can whip up a convincing looking diagram flow chart.

Also, note the heavy "spectrum" marketing. Five, ten+ and full spectrums. When in fact, there are only a few standard led diode configurations for plant growth. Most of these claims are just pure hyperbole. Ask them about the science behind the spectrum.

Most business would not last long with deceptive sells techniques. What these suppliers have going for themselves is that they
know they will not be held accountable in a niche/underground market.

I have been told by a supplier that stating "theoretical wattage" is the industry standard. This is laughable. It is the industry--
deception. It is akin to buying an 8 cylinder sports car and then opening the hood to find a sticker on the lid--this vehicle only
operates on 6 cylinders.

There is one major international internet seller of consumer goods based in the US. They carry a range of LEDs. One or
two listings are transparent. Every single listing is based on deceptive wattage claims. I will be in contact with their people--as
they say.

We can stop buying LEDs from the flagrant deceivers. And we can report all issues to sites like--FTC, Ripoff reports and
hundreds of other sites and agencies.

I own one very expensive professionally designed LED's. Too costly to buy another at the moment. Plus the 240 BlackStar
which incidentally runs substantially lower in wattage then listed at 240 watts and another branded unit that appears to be in
generic form from many other manufactures.

I am not buying another LED, until, the market becomes more forthright and honest. But, as the author states in the article
above--the Chinese now know what is required for plant growth--so if I was going to buy an LED today--a heavily
discounted Chinese unit.

 

[Gloomshade]

Some interesting information here. I do think you shouldn't get too caught up in the watts on the box/title vs actual draw watts. Unless the company doesn't list the actual draw watts, or is flagrantly abusive of it... Its like car stereo subwoofer wattages...They're fictional...Or....Car manufacturers stating HP at the engine, not at the wheels where it counts...just part of the industry.

 

[GCase]

Some interesting information here. I do think you shouldn't get too caught up in the watts on the box/title vs actual draw watts. Unless the company doesn't list the actual draw watts, or is flagrantly abusive of it... Its like car stereo subwoofer wattages...They're fictional...Or....Car manufacturers stating HP at the engine, not at the wheels where it counts...just part of the industry.

I have to disagree. Most buyer are not schooled in electronics. So, if one sells a consumer product the seller is in the stronger position. He or she knows what they are selling. A watt is either a watt or not.

I don't know about stereo but I did read a bit a moment ago. The stereo industry is selling tons of watts---but, these watts are useless at some point. LED manufactures are selling stated "high watts" which translates into more flower power--the distinction is that the wattage is far lower and not far higher as in stereos.

I don't see how anyone can argue with facts. It is a deception. So many analogies. It all gets back to contract law and consumer protection. That is why we have such in the US. here is an example---http://articles.latimes.com/2014/apr/21/business/la-fi-court-fruit-drinks-20140422

The ability of companies to promote their product via --"puffery/puffing (bs)," is a fundamental part of business and was decided by the Supreme Court years ago (and that is their term of art "puffery" it defined the case discussion--I will find it if anyone is interested) as fair play between competitors and is an aspect of free speech--but it has limits. Examples - we are the worlds best, one of the best LEDs on the market, our fried chicken is simply the best etc. The reasoning behind this is that they are not stating a fact or misrepresenting a fact. They are stating what they think--not a fact, that a rational consumer would view as a verifiable fact. Then the consumer can either accept the statement or look a bit further. However, no business can hype a product based on a false premise. You can't tell a consumer there are 12 donuts in a box and then only provide 10 fresh donuts and two empty spaces and then tell people this is the Industry Standard. They are deceiving without any logic.

All these LED manufactures have to do is state the wattage used and not a bold faced lie. Consumers of items like electronics are what would be termed sophisticated products. Consumers rely on the manufacture/seller for truthful information to make decisions. LED manufactures/sellers may, in fact, may have a higher standard of disclosure than a run of the mill consumer item (e.g., felt tipped pen). Consumer law is premised on knowledge--that is who is in the best position to have the product information. Deception comes in all kinds of forms and the most debasing is saying "nothing" when one has a duty to disclose. I view such as the equivalent of a pick pocket vs an armed robber. At least, an armed robber confronts one. The manufacture/seller who says--"nothing"--is a pickpocket artist. You can run after the armed robber but to be pickpocketed is far more invasive in terms of "knowing" who took your wallet and being able to take some action.

One way to get the industries attention is make large volume LED suppliers aware of their mislabeling with the threat of a class action suit. The difficulty is the fragmented LED market and its international component. However, the seller can be held liable for a manufactures omissions or falsehoods in marketing products when they are or should be aware of such. A seller is responsible for what it sells and can't hide behind the manufactures specs/marketing etc. The question is: Who is in the best position to tell the truth or provide truthful facts to make a purchase decision.

So, a person could put together a class action suit against the "sellers" of LEDs--the deeper the pockets the better. First suit is filed against x.com a major online supplier of LED's to consumers. Then defendants are added and eventually one gets down to the manufactures even those in China. Of course, the point of purchase sellers will then add to it with cross claims and third party complaints. So, as discover proceeds new defendants are added and all purchasers can become claimants. Of course the lawyers will make most of the money. Yet it will change the practices of the industry. I don't see any other way to get their attention because the market is so very full of copycats and cons.

 

[Bilbo]

PC hard drives are a good example too, 1gb equals 1000mb for marketing purposes!

 

[Gloomshade]

I got a cracker for you.

http://ledgrowlightworld.com.au/led-range/switchup/

http://www.topledgrowlight.com/led-grow-light/reflector-led-grow-light.html?___SID=U

Look familiar...?

Nice little 400%+ markup

 

[Bilbo]

I get what you are saying Gloomshade but I can't find the specs to see if the internals are the same, any idea where I can get the tech sheets?

If I go on looks alone it would be the same as comparing a basic model car to it's luxury top of the range model, both the same shell but totally different specs.

 

[Gloomshade]

I have to disagree. Most buyer are not schooled in electronics. So, if one sells a consumer product the seller is in the stronger position. He or she knows what they are selling. A watt is either a watt or not.

I don't know about stereo but I did read a bit a moment ago. The stereo industry is selling tons of watts---but, these watts are useless at some point. LED manufactures are selling stated "high watts" which translates into more flower power--the distinction is that the wattage is far lower and not far higher as in stereos.

I don't see how anyone can argue with facts. It is a deception. So many analogies. It all gets back to contract law and consumer protection. That is why we have such in the US. here is an example---http://articles.latimes.com/2014/apr/21/business/la-fi-court-fruit-drinks-20140422

The ability of companies to promote their product via --"puffery/puffing (bs)," is a fundamental part of business and was decided by the Supreme Court years ago (and that is their term of art "puffery" it defined the case discussion--I will find it if anyone is interested) as fair play between competitors and is an aspect of free speech--but it has limits. Examples - we are the worlds best, one of the best LEDs on the market, our fried chicken is simply the best etc. The reasoning behind this is that they are not stating a fact or misrepresenting a fact. They are stating what they think--not a fact, that a rational consumer would view as a verifiable fact. Then the consumer can either accept the statement or look a bit further. However, no business can hype a product based on a false premise. You can't tell a consumer there are 12 donuts in a box and then only provide 10 fresh donuts and two empty spaces and then tell people this is the Industry Standard. They are deceiving without any logic.

All these LED manufactures have to do is state the wattage used and not a bold faced lie. Consumers of items like electronics are what would be termed sophisticated products. Consumers rely on the manufacture/seller for truthful information to make decisions. LED manufactures/sellers may, in fact, may have a higher standard of disclosure than a run of the mill consumer item (e.g., felt tipped pen). Consumer law is premised on knowledge--that is who is in the best position to have the product information. Deception comes in all kinds of forms and the most debasing is saying "nothing" when one has a duty to disclose. I view such as the equivalent of a pick pocket vs an armed robber. At least, an armed robber confronts one. The manufacture/seller who says--"nothing"--is a pickpocket artist. You can run after the armed robber but to be pickpocketed is far more invasive in terms of "knowing" who took your wallet and being able to take some action.

One way to get the industries attention is make large volume LED suppliers aware of their mislabeling with the threat of a class action suit. The difficulty is the fragmented LED market and its international component. However, the seller can be held liable for a manufactures omissions or falsehoods in marketing products when they are or should be aware of such. A seller is responsible for what it sells and can't hide behind the manufactures specs/marketing etc. The question is: Who is in the best position to tell the truth or provide truthful facts to make a purchase decision.

So, a person could put together a class action suit against the "sellers" of LEDs--the deeper the pockets the better. First suit is filed against x.com a major online supplier of LED's to consumers. Then defendants are added and eventually one gets down to the manufactures even those in China. Of course, the point of purchase sellers will then add to it with cross claims and third party complaints. So, as discover proceeds new defendants are added and all purchasers can become claimants. Of course the lawyers will make most of the money. Yet it will change the practices of the industry. I don't see any other way to get their attention because the market is so very full of copycats and cons.

I think the problem is overstating the wattage is the industry norm, like if you were a new LED manufacturer entering the industry, with an actual draw of 450 and theoretical max of 900w, and you listed it at 450watts, you would likely lose a lot of business to people who skip over your product looking for a higher wattage for a similar price elsewhere...The industry norm is forcing the retailers to list the theoretical maximums to stay competitive with everyone else who does the same thing.

When I starting researching LED's i understood quickly that they were all overstated and you had to read the fine print to work out what it was actually going to pull from your wall.

 

[mauricem00]

interesting thread but many products are promoted using false or exaggerated claims. marketers rely on consumer ignorance. a smart consumer educates himself and does his own research.before buying a product. I am a T5 grower and a DIYer who studied electrical engineering at CSLB in the 70's and have found many false or exaggerated claims regarding fluorescent grow lights as well. I tested a few 10 and 50 watt COBs and found the efficiency claims to be exaggerated as well.some strains will grow under LEDs but many will not. the bottom line is that you have to do your own research and make educated buying choices. assume everything a salesman tells you is a lie until proven by an independent, respected and unbiased source

 

[medi]

I actually have a TOPLED and one of the defining features for me was that they were upfront about the discrepancy between draw wattage and hardware capability(i.e what the chips are rated at X diodes). When I got it in the mail I'd already purchased a draw meter and it was smack in the middle of the range they'd said it would be. I tend to agree that there is a lot of hyperbole, misdirection, and just general misleading in the LED industry. I think that's a numbers game for them, the pool of educated consumers is low enough that they get enough suckers to keep the business up. There isn't a watch dog group to keep them honest like there are in many other industries, and until they're held accountable the motivation to do honest business won't be there. I don't think that makes the industry unique though in any way, and I don't even need to name any industry to illustrate.

 

[Gloomshade]

I get what you are saying Gloomshade but I can't find the specs to see if the internals are the same, any idea where I can get the tech sheets?

If I go on looks alone it would be the same as comparing a basic model car to it's luxury top of the range model, both the same shell but totally different specs.

Trust me dude, they're exactly the same product. Just a guy in australia started a website, added a markup and is making some cash, its possible he doesn't even warehouse them himself and just sends through orders to the topled warehouse.