Grow Mediums Am I insane or a lot of people are using the WRONG pH !!!

[Groff]

Ok, I just had a major facepalm moment with myself.

I learnt everything I know about hydro here. Mainly... 95% of my time gobbling up diary after diary, copying, failing, learning, improving etc etc. I think I got to a pretty good level, but there was always that x-factor missing from my girls.

For my learnings here, I got, and saw multiple times, that people start at a low pH and gradually increase. Say start at 5.6-5.8 and got up to the flush at 6.2-6.4.

Well that is just completely wrong!! :jaw:

(might be obvious to some, but I think I would have noticed such a thing from so many many many diaries read... even on mine, no one ever commented I was doing it wrong!!)

Take a look at this... you may have seen it already I'm sure, but never old news

View attachment 320220

Well, N is always available, so that is why my plants have always grown fast and tall... People complain Ca deficiency mid-late flowering. Well, thats because is less available starting at 5.9 !!

And look and P and K... no wonder I never got trunks! I was boosting pk13/14 and then depriving the girls with too high pH, locking it entirely late flower !!

I have always started at around 5.5 and gone up to 6.4 slow and gradual with great results, never fantastic. My pH is always rock solid. Everything goes super until the final yield making final weeks, where I end up slightly disappointed.

I dont understand where I got it wrong, but I distinctly remember being recommended to start seedlings/cuts at 5.5 or close and take it from there. I was on another forum reading up on RDWC when I downloaded UC's product PDF and was looking at the recommended values and I just froze.

Idk... am I nuts or are many many people here doing it "wrong" like me ?!

EDIT: Yep, just checked on good 'ol professor SB - my first real copy-cat target ... starts low ends high. Mighty confusing

 

[Epic Genetics]

you end high for the P and K and no N , how much calcium do you really need when nearing the end ? is it not a micro ? myself id rather be sure i was getting the p-k before worrying about others

peace

p.s. you can always give a foliar feed with calcium if need be

edit , i just realized you said end at 6.4 , in hydro i wouldnt go that high

 

[Groff]

Not talking Ca specific, but the idea of doing hydro (DWC mainly) with a low pH and ending high. I completely contradicts the plants needs at each stage. Current Culture folk say so themselves and it makes peeeerfect sense, check it out;

And bob, no way dude!! P and K completely lock out starting 6.0 !! So you cant finish high for increased P and K, that is precisely the point here. And N is available all the way through the pH range down to 5.5, so you can't lock it out with pH, only switching to bloom nutes will cut down N availability. Bazinga!

I think many people have got it switched around. Look at the chart above, the first is soil, the second is hydro availability.

Yeah, I ended 6.4 in coco but thankfully the CEC properties buffered in my favor!!

I'm mid way my first RDWC... so happy I found this!

 

[Epic Genetics]

when i mention end high in hydro thats 5.8 for me , start low for good N uptake and high for good P and K

again , 5.8 being the high end for me with hydro , 6.5 if soil

peace

 

[Groff]

start low for good N uptake and high for good P and K

Bob, I'm not implying you're doing it wrong, or that you're locking out nutes, or anything. Just that the above quoted statement is wrong in theory!

You work within optimal ranges, and it works fine, and so is "everyone" else. Heck, SB is a master and he does the same, starts 5.6'ish and ends 5.9... certainly works, but if you're near 5.8 in the end, and say you calibration is off just slightly, you could be in a near lock-out zone and yield a heck of a lot less than if you'd finish at 5.6 +/- error

Surely staying around 5.8 is ideal compromise, but Current Culture folk are highly regarded and they suggest start 6.3 and end 5.7. I see "everyone" do the opposite here, except people don't finish as high as 6.3, but do START very very low - too low maybe? This could be hindering results for many!

 

[Epic Genetics]

Bob, I'm not implying you're doing it wrong, or that you're locking out nutes, or anything. Just that the above quoted statement is wrong in theory!

You work within optimal ranges, and it works fine, and so is "everyone" else. Heck, SB is a master and he does the same, starts 5.6'ish and ends 5.9... certainly works, but if you're near 5.8 in the end, and say you calibration is off just slightly, you could be in a near lock-out zone and yield a heck of a lot less than if you'd finish at 5.6 +/- error

Surely staying around 5.8 is ideal compromise, but Current Culture folk are highly regarded and they suggest start 6.3 and end 5.7. I see "everyone" do the opposite here, except people don't finish as high as 6.3, but do START very very low - too low maybe? This could be hindering results for many!

yeah i dunno , you could be right , my full time has been soil/soiless with the odd bubble bucket and passive hydro grows mixed in once n a while

im far from a hydro expert lol

peace

 

[Mr Piggy]

Okay, I could totally be wrong here as I'm as far from hydro as it gets...so here goes...

From what I understand about hydro the PH is not static. As the plant uses nutrients the ph fluctuates, and the fluctuation is essential yes? Thanks to the fluctuation between EACH watering, not over the life of the plant, it allows different nutes to become available to the plant?

So the buffet is provided through fluctuation, dips and spikes during the week?

Oh boy, I may have just stepped in it....

 

[phillow]

Okay, I could totally be wrong here as I'm as far from hydro as it gets...so here goes...

From what I understand about hydro the PH is not static. As the plant uses nutrients the ph fluctuates, and the fluctuation is essential yes? Thanks to the fluctuation between EACH watering, not over the life of the plant, it allows different nutes to become available to the plant?

So the buffet is provided through fluctuation, dips and spikes during the week?

Oh boy, I may have just stepped in it....

Hello Mr.Piggy and let me start this off with a :Sharing One:......ok....I have been doing hydro(photo's and auto's) mostly photo's for a few years and this is my "My 2 cents" to your comment.....you are mostly correct but must also understand that the main variable to this is the availability of chelates (if any) in the nutrients being used. The "higher end" nute manufacturer's use chelates to make nutrients more available in hydro environments....keep in mind...I am no expert but have read a good deal about this...........I will first quote a statement and then provide a link to the full article regarding chelates and their importance in hydro environments..."[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]CHELATION is a natural process. In order to prevent absorbed nutrients from precipitation resulting from the interaction of nutrients, such as iron forming precipitation with phosphorus, upon entering plant cells cationic nutrients will immediately form chelates with ORGANIC ACIDS such as citric acids, malonic cid, and some amino acids. This chelation process will then enable the nutrients to move freely inside the plants." also "[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]THE SIGNIFICANCE OF CHELATION PROCESS IN GROWING PLANTS
[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]1. Increase the availability of nutrients. [/FONT] [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
Chelating agents will bind the relatively insoluble iron in high pH soil and make it available to plants.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]2. Prevent mineral nutrients from forming insoluble precipitates.[/FONT] [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
The chelating agents of the metal ions will protect the chelated ions from unfavorable chemical reactions and hence increase the availability of these ions to plants. One example is iron in high pH soil. In high pH soil, iron will react with hydroxyl group (OH-) to form insoluble ferric hydroxide (Fe(OH)3) which is not available to plants.[/FONT] [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
[/FONT] [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Fe+3 + 3 OH-[/FONT] [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]-------->[/FONT] [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Fe (OH)3[/FONT] [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Soluble[/FONT] [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Insoluble[/FONT] [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] Chelation will prevent this reaction from happening and hence render iron available to plants.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]3. Reduce toxicity of some metal ions to plants.[/FONT] [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
Chelation in the soil may reduce the concentration of some metal ions to a non-toxic level. This process is usually accomplished by humic acid and high-molecular-weight components of organic matter.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]4. Prevent nutrients from leaching.[/FONT] [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
Metal ions forming chelates are more stable than the free ions. Chelation process reduces the loss of nutrients through leaching.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]5. Increase the mobility of plant nutrients.[/FONT] [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
Chelation increases the mobility of nutrients in soil. This increased mobility enhances the uptake of these nutrients by plants.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]6. Suppress the growth of plant pathogens.[/FONT] [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
Some chelating agents may suppress the growth of plant pathogens by depriving iron and hence favor plant growth.



[/FONT]
What is exactly a chelate and what are they good for ? A chelate is simply an organic molecule that wraps itself around a metal ion and prevents its precipitation, increasing its solubility. Chelates also diminish the amount of available metal ions to plants and therefore they slowly release the quantities of micro nutrients available for plant growth. There are many available pre-made chelates on the market such as Fe-EDTA. However, the cheapest way to generate chelates once you already have a standarized formulation based on simple inorganic salts is to add a chelating agent. - See more at: http://scienceinhydroponics.com/201...ydroponic-nutrients.html#sthash.jzwEMkS0.dpuf


full link here :thumbs:http://www.jhbiotech.com/plant_products/chelation.htm

The truth is, not all nutrients use chelates :tiphat: like I said just my "My 2 cents"

 

[phillow]

ooops...sorry for the multiple statement at the end of post:dunno:...................................btw Mr.Piggy.....this is just the very beginning of this debate!!!.....and don't forget...I use Advanced Nutrients PH perfect line........and that opens up a whole new pile of $hit to step in .......once again....I really can be good at "Stirring"......but in a good intentioned way:tiphat:

 

[phillow]

Ok, I just had a major facepalm moment with myself.

I learnt everything I know about hydro here. Mainly... 95% of my time gobbling up diary after diary, copying, failing, learning, improving etc etc. I think I got to a pretty good level, but there was always that x-factor missing from my girls.

For my learnings here, I got, and saw multiple times, that people start at a low pH and gradually increase. Say start at 5.6-5.8 and got up to the flush at 6.2-6.4.

Well that is just completely wrong!! :jaw:

(might be obvious to some, but I think I would have noticed such a thing from so many many many diaries read... even on mine, no one ever commented I was doing it wrong!!)

Take a look at this... you may have seen it already I'm sure, but never old news

View attachment 320220

Well, N is always available, so that is why my plants have always grown fast and tall... People complain Ca deficiency mid-late flowering. Well, thats because is less available starting at 5.9 !!

And look and P and K... no wonder I never got trunks! I was boosting pk13/14 and then depriving the girls with too high pH, locking it entirely late flower !!

I have always started at around 5.5 and gone up to 6.4 slow and gradual with great results, never fantastic. My pH is always rock solid. Everything goes super until the final yield making final weeks, where I end up slightly disappointed.

I dont understand where I got it wrong, but I distinctly remember being recommended to start seedlings/cuts at 5.5 or close and take it from there. I was on another forum reading up on RDWC when I downloaded UC's product PDF and was looking at the recommended values and I just froze.

Idk... am I nuts or are many many people here doing it "wrong" like me ?!

EDIT: Yep, just checked on good 'ol professor SB - my first real copy-cat target ... starts low ends high. Mighty confusing

I am going to totally agree with you on the PH issue..........only lately have I been hearing about starting at 5.5 5.6 for seedlings or clones and working your way up and out at about 6.2...........I think a bunch of people started getting the soil and hydro PH numbers mixed up with out good clarification of this..........I am going to start at 5.8 and end at 5.8 from now on!!!.....thanks for sharing this issue!:thumbs::tiphat: