High Variation in Autoflowers

[Olde School Player]

Perhaps, with the underlying nature of cannabis and particularly autoflower strain genetics we simply shouldn't expect high consistency among seeds. Some purposeful genetic modification seems needed to better stabilize autoflower gene replication/copying and expression.

But isn't that just accepting the problem? There are breeding methods that through multiple generations of backcrossing between the original parentals, most to almost all of the recessive genes can be eliminated, resulting in a stable inbred line. You make an excellent point, it's a bit more challenging with autoflowers because (maybe) you can't clone the autoflower side of the equation to be used in backcrossing multiple generations to stabilize the strain. And pollen collection can only carry you so far - good for the non-commercial hobbyist breeder to entertain, but not sufficient for a commercial operation.
There are some interesting works being conducted using tissue culture that may offer (a) ability to clone auto's and (b) greatly simplify backcrossing autoflower strains until the inbred line becomes stable.
I suppose the real point I'm trying to make is that it CAN be done. But IF we continue to accept inferior results, breeders will have absolutely no motivation to improve their strain profiles. We need a unified front where economics brings the pressure. And, as I've said before in this thread, just because it's hard doesn't mean we shouldn't do it!

 

[JP1]

It's just early for that kind of stability in cannabis plants. Photo plants are super common to get 10 different plants from 10 seeds, but it only takes 1 that's what it's supposed to be out of those 10, since you can clone it. So I actually think there's more stability in auto seeds, especially when you get to the f6+ generations since you rarely see that with photos now. But it'll take a minute and changes in laws and testing availability for the breeders to really upscale to get mass market consistency like major agriculture can do. But if you're looking for specifically consistency then go with the breeders that others have mentioned and go with the higher filial generations. There's just not a ton yet that have had the time/space to work lines that far. Plus the $ is always in new hot shit, so it seems like making inbred lines only gets so far in sales

 

[Olde School Player]

To anyone following along with this topic, it's come & gone multiple times. If I've piqued your interest in the ability to get this done, take a look at this thread:

Cannabis Genetics 101: How to stabilize a strain

Thoughts by Sensiseeds Stabilising cannabis Procedures to stabilise cannabis strains are poorly understood, even by breeders producing commercial strains. Stability refers to the variability and predictability found in the offspring of a parent generation: when a strain is unstable, variability...

www.autoflower.org

It's been around four + years with no comments - largely, I expect, because the technical jargon that's unknown to most makes it hard to sink in. But if you read it and grasp the basics, you'll see that it CAN be done. It's just that many breeders elect to not do it BECAUSE WE KEEP ACCEPTING INFERIOR UNSTABLE PRODUCTS!

But let me ask you this - are you uncomfortable spending your hard earned money on strains that you realistically have no idea what they will produce?
I'm guilty. I have called out Fast Buds multiple times in this thread. Not to pick on them exclusively, but because they are the one breeder I have used almost exclusively for years! I've had some absolutely amazing phenotypes grown from their seeds. And as I try to repeat results across multiple seed purchases of the same (supposed) strain, I watch it go to shit and present as a plant with absolutely no recognizable traits of the original.
I can afford to buy more seeds. In fact, I will probably buy more seeds from them this week, because I have no better source to reliably obtain seeds. What I can't afford is putting in the time to grow medical class cannabis for my patients, only to have low yield and/or greatly decreased quality destroy an entire 2+ month production cycle.
I don't make money on this because I donate the product to my patients. But they sure as hell suffer when an expected production cycle goes to shit. WE have to fix this!!!!!

 

[Olde School Player]

It's just early for that kind of stability in cannabis plants. Photo plants are super common to get 10 different plants from 10 seeds, but it only takes 1 that's what it's supposed to be out of those 10, since you can clone it. So I actually think there's more stability in auto seeds, especially when you get to the f6+ generations since you rarely see that with photos now. But it'll take a minute and changes in laws and testing availability for the breeders to really upscale to get mass market consistency like major agriculture can do. But if you're looking for specifically consistency then go with the breeders that others have mentioned and go with the higher filial generations. There's just not a ton yet that have had the time/space to work lines that far. Plus the $ is always in new hot shit, so it seems like making inbred lines only gets so far in sales

You present a good point of how we got around this with photoperiods - cloning! In my beginning indoor days 20+ years ago, I really loved doing pheno searches. I found some amazing presentations of ChemDog, Medicine Man, Critical Mass, a little known G-13/Big Bud hybrid, & and outdoor Frankenstein plant brought indoors that kept my mother room full and my cloners working full time!.
But I made a decision years ago to quit volume production & devote my time to autoflowers and grandchildren. I'm in an illegal state so I made the commitment to only grow single plants. Superior autoflower yields made too much sense to not do that. Hence, where I am today.
I like the part where you said "especially when you get to the f6+ generations" One of the potential solutions I see for this is best practices standards for strain descriptions and breeding techniques outlining efforts to stabilize a strain. Memphisto is the only breeder I have experience with that publishes that data. I think everyone should, or we dont buy from them!
Alternatively, we buy only from those who adhere to best practices as a way to build their business. Reward those who earn it & stop giving money to the pollen chuckers!

 

[Olde School Player]

Twenty20 is getting to the F5-7 stages now with little variation. The bubble tricks I grew were pretty uniform. Had one that bushed but the other two were open structure. The bush I believe was operator error. Not the breeder.

Going to look at that breeder now, thanks!

 

[JP1]

Mephisto hubbabubbasmelloscope f6. I've grown 7 of them so far in different runs. Very consistent in size/smell/potency so far. Not very strong but really tasty. Just chopped this one this weekend. Very bubblegum terps with 1 bubblegum/gas pheno so far. Energetic high

 

[Olde School Player]

Royal Cheese Auto (Royal Queen Seeds) but they were honest about variation. Sour Diesel (G-13 Labs) high variation. Red Poison (Sweet Seeds) not much variation but not very productive. LSD-25 (Fast Buds) variation. Pink Kush (CBD Dinafem?) pretty uniform. Mimosa (Seedsman freebie) two plants very different but both productive. Purple Lemonade (Fast Buds) uniform. These are what I can think of at the moment. All are with only a few plants so not very scientific, just sort of aggravating. I understand the difficulties of producing seed that giives uniform production and appreciate companies like Royal Queen Seeds that admit to variation. It is not too surprising that the genetics of Cannabis is a bit behind. Corn and Rice and Wheat have been studied for over 100 years by universities and companies. Poor Cannabis has been made illegal and relegated to smart but underground growers. Side note....I have read "The History of Hemp Production in Kentucky." A tedious but interesting read. The tragedy depicted in the book is that KY went from producing premium seed to the world for Hemp production to zip in the 1930s. They had had 100 years of breeding improvements but by the 1950s NONE of the seed could be recovered.....All that work and interest and knowledge lost forever.

Thanks, at your suggestion I'm looking at Royal Queen. They have a Matanuska Thunderfuck strain that I grew years ago. Just the name alone made me want it, plus my wife smoked the original in Alaska decades back. Cant resist it.

 

[Olde School Player]

Twenty20 is getting to the F5-7 stages now with little variation. The bubble tricks I grew were pretty uniform. Had one that bushed but the other two were open structure. The bush I believe was operator error. Not the breeder.

Have a couple of theirs in my shopping cart, going to come back after dinner & order. They do an exceptional job at rating their pheno's for stability, but I almost get the feeling they are trying too hard to be different in their descriptions. It's hard when they list height as short, tall, etc., at yield as average / more than., Very little in their strain descriptions in the way of what we're accustomed to seeing.
But I'll award their efforts with a few strain orders. Thanks for the recommendation.

 

[N/A-Greengo]

I've heard good things about Memphisto but I've only tried one strain, Skywalker. While the strain was a very poor yielder, in all fairness they stated that in their claims. What does greatly impress me about them is the strain development discipline they adhere to, and freely publish for all to see. If I find a high producing quality strain from them I'll have no qualms going back.

You can't go wrong with Mephisto Genetics IMO. They by far have the most consistent genetics IME, and I've been dabbling with them for more years than I care to admit .

Edit: And as @Jpkindbud mentioned, TM20 is a great company as well who disclose the technical aspects of their cultivars and what to expect. And IME are very consistent.

Mephisto hubbabubbasmelloscope f6. I've grown 7 of them so far in different runs. Very consistent in size/smell/potency so far. Not very strong but really tasty. Just chopped this one this weekend. Very bubblegum terps with 1 bubblegum/gas pheno so far. Energetic high
View attachment 1625864View attachment 1625865View attachment 1625866View attachment 1625867

Another great Meph producer(and a personal favourite of mine) is Fantasmo Express. And wait until Old School Mango Haze is released. I just harvested a half lb from her my friend....

Also, @Jean-O has a few high yielding cultivars and is definitely worth a look over...

But having great results requires experience. I grew photos for years as well. Autoflowers are a different animal. Dialing in a method for them takes time.

 

[Olde School Player]

You can't go wrong with Mephisto Genetics IMO. They by far have the most consistent genetics IME, and I've been dabbling with them for more years than I care to admit .

Edit: And as @Jpkindbud mentioned, TM20 is a great company as well who disclose the technical aspects of their cultivars and what to expect. And IME are very consistent.



Another great Meph producer(and a personal favourite of mine) is Fantasmo Express. And wait until Old School Mango Haze is released. I just harvested a half lb from her my friend....

Also, @Jean-O has a few high yielding cultivars and is definitely worth a look over...

But having great results requires experience. I grew photos for years as well. Autoflowers are a different animal. Dialing in a method for them takes time.

"... Dialing in a method for them takes time."
That's why I don't feel we can rely upon grow diaries or surveys of others' results. There are a lot of beginner & novice growers out here, many of whom freely admit they screwed up on a grow, but there are many more who just don't yet know enough to say they screwed up. Not to berate them, I enjoy helping beginners & we all had to start somewhere. But to your point, having great results requires experience.
I trust my experience growing photoperiods since forever, and I'm somewhere around mid to upper 30's of autoflower grows. My systems work! But, once again, experienced growers cant do this alone. Defining a process gets a good start to let breeders know our expectations. But then we have to get buy in from EVERYONE to enforce expectations by supporting the good breeders & not purchasing from the bad ones.
The government might try to fix this, or mess it up one day. But frankly I expect we as experienced growers, putting the word out to everyone, can fix the problem without another government regulation. After all, where's the knowledge base? Breeders & experienced growers.