My theory on the Canna root system in organically grown EarthBoxes.

[WildBill]

After my first debacle in running EarthBoxes, and seeing the potential, I chose to delve into some research into them. Jeremy of Build A Soil 10x10 tent series started me off. The one key point I took from the series is a dry period for the reservoir is key. The dry period is key in keeping the reservoir in good condition. Keeping nutes out of the reservoir by not over applying liquid to the media and have it get into the reservoir.

Jeremy touches on the subject of keeping nutes out of the reservoir, but most of his top dressings are dry. Using a modified KNF program, I had to find a way of adding my needed nutes to keep them out of the reservoir. With finding a way to do just that for over 100 days, the root system has changed.

I do think that EB girls do develop essentially two root systems where one mainly is for water uptake with the big fat roots and the other that is mainly for the uptake of nutes. Root structures are different. Roots in the reservoir are big fat roots and the nute roots in the media at the top are fine and thin.

I think this lets the girl uptake and find nute as needed. She's not forced to uptake nutes while getting the water it needs that's driven by the VPD. I know I probably topdress too often, and I have been hitting that pretty heavy with nutes. and some hormones.........aminos, J, SST, Blue Gold flower, brewed teas with kelp and alfalfa. To keep with this modded KNF and keep the two systems separate and nutes out of the reservoir, the liquid nutes are mixed with compost into a slurry. This helps keep nutes out of the reservoir. There's a pretty good-sized bank with LOTS of nutes in it. Once I get both systems established, I continue to examine the root structure in the top layers. As the grow continues and the top dressings accumulate, the fine search roots don't make it to the surface like I've seen in my and others grow that don't develop the two root systems. And this is with top moisture levels high enough to support this. They begin to appear about a half inch down and it has been this way the entire grow. I think this supports my theory that the two root system lets the girl take the nutes it needs at that point in it's life. The roots are moving into the topdressings as it needs to do. The media I used was Roots Organic Original and only amended with a light dose of BAS Craft Blend. The roots have long ago explored that fully, so the limited intrusion into the top dressing is not from an abundance of nutrients there.

All of this is theory, but I think it's soundly backed up by observation and how the girl is growing. Now to be honest, this may change under indoor conditions with MUCH better light or it could be confirmed without a doubt. Keeping with the same feeding schedule and amount of amendments and if I see the same root development in the media with much more nutrient demand from the better light, then my theory should be backed up.

I don't think limited intrusion into the media is from the lack of worms making pathways thru the amended compost slurry. The outside temps have been too high for the worms to thrive and feed on the top. This may change things a bit as the worms will provide a path of the least resistance that's lined with digested and processed nutrients.

After the next run, I'm thinking of just chopping the girl and planting a cover crop as soon as I get the girl drying. I'm currently growing a cover crop in the EB from the girl I chopped earlier. It's two row Barley as it was what I had on hand. It forms a similar root system as L-bon Rye, which would be my choice for this purpose. All I'm really trying to accomplish is growing something that I can keep trimmed up and add worm food to the top, while the roots in the reservoir die and reabsorbed with EM1 in the reservoir. This should leave lots of goodies throughout the media. I have no idea how long this will take, but it should be finished in two weeks or so. If I plant back into it without disassembly, I will have to scrape off the mounded compost slurry so I can add slurry during the grow. I'll probably try that for one time to test the results. A different method would be to dump the box into a tote after the cover crop has done its work and let it cook with some microbes.

If everything holds true during in an indoor grow, this could turn out to be a relatively uneventful and easy grow method without nutrient problems. It could be one less thing to worry about during a grow and that's ALWAYS good.


I might be totally off on this, but I think my observations back my theory.

Input is welcomed!!!!
Waira
Organic Sinse
hecno
simoiget
Fermented_Fruitz
AutoflowerAK

 

[Death The Cultivator]

@mdabber showed me this



Is that similar to what you're getting at? I'll have to break out Raven's Plant Biology as I'm fuzzy on the inner workings of roots.

From Raven Plant Biology

The spatial configuration, or architecture, of a root system can show considerable variation even within different parts of a single root system. Growing roots are extremely sensitive to a wide range of environmental parameters, including gravity, light, gradients of moisture, temperature, and nutrients in the soil. A striking example of the developmental plasticity, or adaptability, of the root system of many species is its response to the uneven distribution of nitrogen and inorganic phosphate by the preferential and rapid development of lateral roots into nutrient-rich zones (see Chapter 29).
The extent of a root system—that is, the depth to which it penetrates the soil and the distance it spreads laterally—is dependent on several factors, including the environmental parameters just mentioned. Taproot systems generally penetrate deeper into the soil than fibrous root systems. The shallowness of fibrous root systems and the tenacity with which they cling to soil particles make such plants especially well suited as ground cover for the prevention of soil erosion. Most trees have surprisingly shallow root systems, with 90 percent or more of all roots located in the upper 60 centimeters (about 2 feet) of soil. The bulk of most fine roots, or so-called feeder roots, the roots actively engaged in the uptake of water and minerals, occurs in the upper 15 centimeters of soil, the part of the soil normally richest in nutrients. Many fine roots are heavily infected with mycorrhizal fungi (see Chapter 14)

 

[Bruce Campbell]

I think you're right - the EB set-up you have promotes surface roots and impedes lateral branching of taproots. However, the fact that you aren't seeing the basal roots grow closer to the surface like others have may be more a result of your specific top-dressings rather than a result of the EBs themselves. To sort of restate / reword what I think you're saying:

The primary purpose of basal root systems is to find and exploit locations of surface nutrients. The primary purpose of taproot systems is to find and absorb water. I would expect any top-fed, bottom-hydrated system like yours to promote basal root growth and limit taproot lateral branching.

I would expect that higher nutrient demand (due to additional light availability) would not change that general morphology unless you change the overall nutrient gradient - i.e., add nutes to reservoir, stop top-feeding, switch to synthetic fertilizers, etc.

However, the observation that the basal roots do not grow up into the top-dressing / surface may be more an issue of relative demand vs. localized availability - i.e., your choice of top dressings and amounts. Roots use gravity to grow down, but basal roots are less sensitive than taproots and laterals to gravity. Those that grow closer to the surface likely do so as a result of the plant lacking a specific nutrient, but sensing higher availabilities towards the surface, causing the basal roots to grow up into higher surface layers.

An example is phosphorous, which is relatively immobile in soils. In phosphorous-deficient soils, basal roots will angle more downwards - i.e., they will still follow gravity while searching for phosphorous since they are not finding any near the surface layers. In phosphorous-sufficient conditions, the basal roots will grow more horizontally since they are finding sufficient levels. In organic top-dressed systems, you could reasonably have higher levels of nutrients closer to the surface, which may cause the roots to grow more in that direction.

That is, you may not see your basal root system penetrating the surface simply because your top dressings are currently sufficient. If you increase demand, you may see the basal root system grow more towards the surface. But, I would not expect the taproot system to change too significantly as long as you are still top-dressing / bottom-hydrating.

 

[WildBill]

@mdabber showed me this



Is that similar to what you're getting at? I'll have to break out Raven's Plant Biology as I'm fuzzy on the inner workings of roots.

I think it's pretty similar. Although he does use 'pond water' as his water and it does contain some nutes, I tdon't hink that would make that much of a difference in the structure.

I think you're right - the EB set-up you have promotes surface roots and impedes lateral branching of taproots. However, the fact that you aren't seeing the basal roots grow closer to the surface like others have may be more a result of your specific top-dressings rather than a result of the EBs themselves. To sort of restate / reword what I think you're saying:

The primary purpose of basal root systems is to find and exploit locations of surface nutrients. The primary purpose of taproot systems is to find and absorb water. I would expect any top-fed, bottom-hydrated system like yours to promote basal root growth and limit taproot lateral branching.

I would expect that higher nutrient demand (due to additional light availability) would not change that general morphology unless you change the overall nutrient gradient - i.e., add nutes to reservoir, stop top-feeding, switch to synthetic fertilizers, etc.

However, the observation that the basal roots do not grow up into the top-dressing / surface may be more an issue of relative demand vs. localized availability - i.e., your choice of top dressings and amounts. Roots use gravity to grow down, but basal roots are less sensitive than taproots and laterals to gravity. Those that grow closer to the surface likely do so as a result of the plant lacking a specific nutrient, but sensing higher availabilities towards the surface, causing the basal roots to grow up into higher surface layers.

An example is phosphorous, which is relatively immobile in soils. In phosphorous-deficient soils, basal roots will angle more downwards - i.e., they will still follow gravity while searching for phosphorous since they are not finding any near the surface layers. In phosphorous-sufficient conditions, the basal roots will grow more horizontally since they are finding sufficient levels. In organic top-dressed systems, you could reasonably have higher levels of nutrients closer to the surface, which may cause the roots to grow more in that direction.

That is, you may not see your basal root system penetrating the surface simply because your top dressings are currently sufficient. If you increase demand, you may see the basal root system grow more towards the surface. But, I would not expect the taproot system to change too significantly as long as you are still top-dressing / bottom-hydrating.

I think you hit all the points I was trying to make. Thanks for the explanation of the root structure and function, It gives me info to further research the subject.

I'm sure that when I grow indoors, the demands will be higher with a similar sized girl. The light in the place I have to grow the girl in is far from optimal and I'm pretty sure she's not getting her full DLI, as her top leaves are still praying pretty hard at sunset. I plan to use same methods as before in setting up the EB and getting two root system functioning. The only difference will be a controlled environment and and a more intense lighting situation with the Mars SP6500.

Now it won't be the same girl, but it will be one that tends to grow large and I'm pretty sure actual bud production will be higher. I plan to keep the same feeding schedule and amounts. I figure that with the same examinations of the top of the media, I should be able to access if this theory about the plant only taken what nutrients it needs and not directly from being driven by the VPD level while taking up water.

It should be interesting!

Thanks for your valuable info! It was very helpful!

 

[Death The Cultivator]

I think it's pretty similar. Although he does use 'pond water' as his water and it does contain some nutes, I tdon't hink that would make that much of a difference in the structure.

I think you hit all the points I was trying to make. Thanks for the explanation of the root structure and function, It gives me info to further research the subject.

I'm sure that when I grow indoors, the demands will be higher with a similar sized girl. The light in the place I have to grow the girl in is far from optimal and I'm pretty sure she's not getting her full DLI, as her top leaves are still praying pretty hard at sunset. I plan to use same methods as before in setting up the EB and getting two root system functioning. The only difference will be a controlled environment and and a more intense lighting situation with the Mars SP6500.

Now it won't be the same girl, but it will be one that tends to grow large and I'm pretty sure actual bud production will be higher. I plan to keep the same feeding schedule and amounts. I figure that with the same examinations of the top of the media, I should be able to access if this theory about the plant only taken what nutrients it needs and not directly from being driven by the VPD level while taking up water.

It should be interesting!

Thanks for your valuable info! It was very helpful!

So I was speaking with our Agriculturist about this and he believes it's moreso due to a lack of oxygen either in the soil or the water causing the basal roots to go upwards. Because gravity and moisture dictate where the taproots and their laterals go. Also that plants don't select which nutrients to uptake, as in hydro you can blast them with anything and they will take it in due to the osmotic pressure. So it would be the microbiology around the rhizosphere that dictates uptake of nutrients. He also says it could be due to higher humidity at the top and or heat though he is over the impression that it should still behave as a taproot system.

We're having clones that are running out of oxygen in their plugs growing roots towards the base rather than down.

 

[hecno]

Great topic guys .

 

[WildBill]

So I was speaking with our Agriculturist about this and he believes it's moreso due to a lack of oxygen either in the soil or the water causing the basal roots to go upwards. Because gravity and moisture dictate where the taproots and their laterals go. Also that plants don't select which nutrients to uptake, as in hydro you can blast them with anything and they will take it in due to the osmotic pressure. So it would be the microbiology around the rhizosphere that dictates uptake of nutrients. He also says it could be due to higher humidity at the top and or heat though he is over the impression that it should still behave as a taproot system.

We're having clones that are running out of oxygen in their plugs growing roots towards the base rather than down.

While it is possible there is a lack of oxygen in the very top, I highly doubt it. It has a crazy amount of biological activity. The activity of the worms in the top layer had subsided due to the heat, but I suspect they are deep where it is cooler. The top and the root intrusion into it have been pretty much the same since starting.........even with all the worm activity.. At the beginning, the roots didn't have to go into the compost layer with the nutes in the roots Organic and with BAS Craft blend. The worms were working that area quite well. Worms pathways are how some oxygen gets into the soil in nature. When I run the EarthBox indoors, the temps will be fine for nice worm activity. and this lack of oxygen will be proven or put to rest.

There is no possibility of lack of oxygen in the water in the rez. I take my water from a bubbling bucket, mix in humic acid and if it's time, EM1and go fill the rez. The rez is vented and I cut a slit in the tube at the divider in the EB. The water is used up in 48hours.

The roots are moving into the material I top dressed with. they are thick into the early layers. I've probed the soil with a thin bamboo stick and I can feel the thick root layers.

We'll know more with the upcoming grow indoors. I'm pretty excited to be honest. I didn't expect the Haze in the EB to do as well as it has with the light available. There will be no lack of light with that SP6500 in my tent. It could very well expose weak spots in my siol build and feeding schedule with the higher intensity of lights for 18 hours.
We'll see! It should be interesting!
Thanks for talking to your Agriculturist and getting his input.

 

[hecno]

I need to understand what you are talking about . Full organic soi in the photos . What part of the root system .

 

[WildBill]

I need to understand what you are talking about . Full organic soi in the photos . What part of the root system .
View attachment 1372037View attachment 1372038

I think SIPs used the way I do, are a different animal.

 

[Tom Bombadil]

Feeder roots will be created where there are the most available resources. If you top dress they will get very thick near that layer.. Mine usually have a thick layer of feeder roots in the top 2 inches of soil that I can barely poke a bamboo stick through as well and Im in #7 cloth pots. I keep my soil evenly saturated so I never get super thick roots anywhere aside from the layer of very fine feeder roots near the top dress.. Underground water sources also exist in nature in areas that have fresh water springs or that are near a creek or something that causes a shallow water table.. Some friends of mine would grow monsters near underground springs and always kept that spot secret... bastards. I think SIPS are just recreating this phenomenon. Nice write up!