OK, just a breeding question.

[HomieHogleg]

I am currently making seeds, between a fairly stable photo strain, that I have developed. She is a cross between "Razorbud", a local Indica variety, and "Blueberry". I have been inbreeding this strain for the past 5 years, trying to get the Blueberry, flavor in an earlier flowering Indica dominate plant. I am down to two distict Phenotypes. One is more Indica Dominate, which is about 3 weeks away from harvest.
View attachment 29108

and a more Sativa Dominate, which is at least 8 weeks away from harvest.
View attachment 29107

Here is a picture of the sativa pheno, sandwiched between 2 Indica phenos.

View attachment 29101


I am wanting to try and make an Autoflowering version of her, as I love this hybrid. This year, I crossed her with an MI 5. I plan on planting the resulting seeds, and take cuttings for breeding purposes, unless I get one that autoflowers. I will be dusting the clones, with pollen from their father. The problem is this. I will be out of MI5 pollen after the first seed from clone run. I do have HBD pollen, available. Since I am trying to keep most of the traits of the original mother, while making an autoflowering version, should I back cross her with pollen from the original photo strain, to reinforce the original characteristics, or should I grow some some more MI5 for a pollen run, and dust the clones with that, or could I get away with using HBD pollen to try and move more toward the autoflower trait.
I am thinking it would be best, to do another MI5 pollen run, and dust with that. Then do a backcross with the original photo strain, when I have some seeds that actually autoflower.
I am hoping someone here can make heads or tails of what I am saying, and has the knowledge to help me out here.

Thanks

HomieHogleg

 

[roadsidevendor1]

my thinking would be to grow some more MI5 and use the best male to pollinate the first
razorberry female but reserve some of the original MI5 pollen to pollinate the first female
offspring to auto of the MI5 x Razorberry cross.
a little inbreeding but a sure way to get the selection you want sooner.
if i understand what i've been reading

 

[HomieHogleg]

my thinking would be to grow some more MI5 and use the best male to pollinate the first
razorberry female but reserve some of the original MI5 pollen to pollinate the first female
offspring to auto of the MI5 x Razorberry cross.
a little inbreeding but a sure way to get the selection you want sooner.
if i understand what i've been reading

That makes more sense. So time to pop some MI5 to get some pollen, to hit the Razorberry cross. I have enough of the original MI5 pollen to do one more batch of seeds, so I should use that on the second batch of the cross from seed, when I have an auto female, made with the second MI5 pollen. OK that makes sense.

Thanks

HomieHogleg

 

[iLuvIndica]

If you go that route homie then all your offspring will only have 25pct of the razorberry genes 75pct Mi5.

 

[HomieHogleg]

If you go that route homie then all your offspring will only have 25pct of the razorberry genes 75pct Mi5.

True, but I think the autoflower will be more difficult to stablize, and I have a bunch or razorberry seeds, so I have a bunch of tries at this.
At least I will be able to smoke my mistakes. :smoke: I have set up two rooms just for this experiment, and may add a third. I will probably be doing a couple of experimental back crosses, with the Razorberry, and see what works out best. I have been trying to set up a spreadsheet template to track my crosses, and see where they go. I think this will be beneficial for me to reference, in future breeding projects.
I have crossed both phenotypes of Razorberry, with the same MI5 father. If I have any autoflower off spring, I will inbreed them, as well as do some crosses with MI5, and Razorberry pollen. This spreadsheet is going to get complicated quick. But I enjoy a challenge.

Have a great week

HomieHogleg

 

[CanadianBudz]

Good luck Homie, if you need a tester let me know

 

[Shift]

I know I'm a little late to the party but..

If I understand this, you have Razorberry x Mi5 beans ready to go and enough parent Mi5 pollen for another cross..
(Regarding merely monohybrids pertaining to the autoflower gene)
Running on the assumptions that the auto gene is recessive, making autos 'homozygous recessive', and your photo strain isn't already carrying or passing the auto genes, your RB x Mi5 beans are now all carriers of the auto gene or heterozygous.

AA (razorberry) x aa (Mi5) = 4/4 (100%) Aa (RB x Mi5)

In this case none of the F1 will autoflower but all of the F1 beans will carry the auto gene. The good news is now any of your heterozygote crosses have a 25% chance of being homozygous recessive (in this case autoflowering.) The bad news is 25% will also have lost the autoflowering gene becoming homozygous dominant. The remaining 50% continue to carry the auto gene (heterozygotes.)

. . . . . . . 1/4 AA
Aa x Aa = 1/2 Aa
. . . . . . . 1/4 aa

Now a P1 x F1 or any other homozygous recessive x heterozygous cross will give you 50% autos and 50% carriers, losing the chance of the homozygous dominant offspring.

Aa x aa = 1/2 Aa
. . . . . . . 1/2 aa

unfortunately that is only the gist of hybrids, but hopefully is of some use to furthering your endeavors.

With that, what I recommend you do is learn more about genotypic and/or phenotypic frequency of polihybrids and start keeping meticulous notes on each seed that you pop. Maybe even start trying to map the pedigree or lineage of your plants. Seriously though, takes notes on as many aspects of the plant as you can or care to, if you intend to retain the characteristics of the Razorberry, while making it into an autoflower. As well as noting (if you have mapped it or started mapping it) the phenotype, and (better yet) genotype of each bean. Your notes will be the only thing to help determine linked traits from unlucky genotypic/phenotypic frequency or ratios.
In addition to the former suggestions, I'd also recommend reading all of the DJ Short articles/papers on breeding and his work. It's a bit more anecdotal than scientific, but still highly informative and applicable.
dihybrids and polihybrids are where it starts to get overwhelming for most new to genetics but interested in a less slap-dash, pollen chuckin' approach. But even if the scientific isn't your angle, great plants/hybrids/crosses can still be had. It may (or may not) take a bit longer to get the desired pheonotypic result, it may be a bit of a crap shoot every run, but you're bound to get to what you're looking for if you even mildly understand selective or 'top down' breeding, but you have to know what you are looking for and breed towards it. What you are looking to do will undoubtedly require many grows, either controlled or pollen chucked, if i understand your overall goal. Which reasonably assumed is to make an Auto Razorberry.

Also, here's a quick view of polihybrids. As some minor terminology has already been expressed, I'll skip the long explanations. (Sorry, I'm getting into this now. )
(This is assuming that photo is dominant and autoflower is recessive, tall plants are dominant and short are recessive, as well as single cola is dominant and bushy is recessive. This is merely for the example.)

a = Autoflower
b = Branching
c = Height

You're looking at something along the lines of a polihybrid that looks something like this:
aaBbCc x AaBBCc
comes out as

genotypic frequency (phenotypic expression)
1/16 aaBbcc (auto, single cola, short)
1/8 aaBbCc (auto, single cola, tall)
1/16 aaBbCC (auto, single cola, tall)
1/16 aaBBcc (auto, single cola, short)
1/8 aaBBCc (auto, single cola, tall)
1/16 aaBBCC (auto, single cola, tall)
1/16 AaBbcc (photo, single cola, short)
1/8 AaBbCc (photo, single cola, tall)
1/16 AaBbCC (photo, single cola, tall)
1/16 AaBBcc (photo, single cola, short)
1/8 AaBBCc (photo, single cola, tall)
1/16 AaBBCC (photo, single cola, tall)

phenotypic frequency (phenotypic expression)
6/16 ABC (photo, single cola, tall)
2/16 ABc (photo, single cola, short)
6/16 aBC (auto, single cola, tall)
2/16 aBc (auto, single cola, short)

as I can't draw punnet squares on here, I'll try to explain the forked line method to the best of my ability.
to figure out the above AaBBCc x aaBbCc would go something like this.

Aa x aa = 1/2 Aa 1/2 aa
BB x Bb = 1/2 BB 1/2 Bb
Cc x Cc = 1/4 CC 1/2 Cc 1/4 cc

and look something like this 'drawn out'

. . . . . . . cc = (1/2)(1/2)(1/4) = 1/16 aaBbcc
. . . . Bb {Cc = (1/2)(1/2)(1/2) = 1/8 aaBbCc
. . . / . . . CC = (1/2)(1/2)(1/4) = 1/16 aaBbCC
aa {
. . . \ . . . cc = (1/2)(1/2)(1/4) = 1/16 aaBBcc
. . . . BB {Cc = (1/2)(1/2)(1/2) = 1/8 aaBBCc
. . . . . . . CC = (1/2)(1/2)(1/4) = 1/16 aaBBCC

and so on through the Aa's..

which would give you the above genotypic and phenotypic frequency list(s).
12 different genotypes; 4 different phenos

scared yet?

I've spent quite some time mapping my pedigrees (that's a topic for a later date) and I wholeheartedly feel, if you're serious about breeding something serious you need to get serious. The work that's put in directly relates to the work that comes out.
IMO you put 5 seasons/years into this Razorberry trying to bring out the blueberry flavor and bring the flower time down, and that shows you care to take the time to make this plant what you want. Why not take a little time to read up on Gregor Mendel, learn a touch more about genetics, learn how to map a pedigree, and lastly take great notes (with pictures if you really want to get crazy. ) It wont let you down, I promise.

I wish you the best of luck in the future, especially with completing your 'Auto Razorberry.'

Sorry for any mistakes or missing information.
I'll go ahead and blame the blue dream bingers and cognac combo, that kept me going while writing this, now.

-Shift

 

[Monkeypox]

I think my brain just drained out my ear from that last post

 

[cres]

I know I'm a little late to the party but..


I've spent quite some time mapping my pedigrees (that's a topic for a later date) and I wholeheartedly feel, if you're serious about breeding something serious you need to get serious. The work that's put in directly relates to the work that comes out.

I like serious... and big #s

IMO you put 5 seasons/years into this Razorberry trying to bring out the blueberry flavor and bring the flower time down, and that shows you care to take the time to make this plant what you want.

-Shift

And the big question you missed or maybe I missed it.... ARE you breeding for an outdoor strain, or an indoor.... big huge difference, as outdoor you get only 1 season per year....and inside you can breed multiple generations per year... Outside breeding needs at least 3+ generations to begin acclimatization which is everything....for breeding a real winner.