Lighting are LED's efficient?
- Thread starter lykaboss
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lol been there done that worn the t shirt and gained a lot of respect I got just short of 357 grams from one auto with led's
Your finding a grow store with people who actually have a clue about anything... are about the same as your odds of finding a good auto mechanic, about 1 in 10.........kinda like finding a good forum that's not full of no-it-alls who know nothing!
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Muddy
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LEDs and autos, especially autos in small areas with good reflective surfaces, are a great match. What I'm seeing in my hydro room is that LEDs still don't have enough penetration to grow good photos. I think this is a big reason that commercial growers haven't made the switch yet. I can see that if I want to get the most out my hydro system I'm going to need some additional light. I won't be switching to HPS as that would open a whole can of worms. I'm running a closed environment with co2. If I were to switch I'd have to go with cool tubes on their own exhaust fan, as well as another fan to exhaust the room. I would also need an expensive environmental controller to time my exhaust fan, A/C and co2 so they wouldn't come on while exhausting. By the time I factored in all those additional costs, as well as the additional electricity needed to run them, I'd be over what I spent on the LEDs. So my solution will be to add some T5 HOs for side lighting. Two 2 bulb fixtures on each side will provide an additional 432 watts of light and another 40k of lumens.
What wattage LEDs are you running? is your grow area sufficiently covered? Don't get me wrong, I take great stock in things you say, I just am curious as to the factors that lead you to your statement. I should think that true watt for watt comparison, without regard for what your growing should be very close. Also, its possible that the new generation lights with 5 watt LEDs are generating even more intense light level. If you had an even PAR for both lights, and considering LED is more directional, I'd thing the penetration would be equal or better, unless that tight beam is responsible for the possibly reduced penetration because of less scattered/reflected light. Just some food for thought, I'm just speculating.
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What wattage LEDs are you running? is your grow area sufficiently covered? Don't get me wrong, I take great stock in things you say, I just am curious as to the factors that lead you to your statement. I should think that true watt for watt comparison, without regard for what your growing should be very close. Also, its possible that the new generation lights with 5 watt LEDs are generating even more intense light level. If you had an even PAR for both lights, and considering LED is more directional, I'd thing the penetration would be equal or better, unless that tight beam is responsible for the possibly reduced penetration because of less scattered/reflected light. Just some food for thought, I'm just speculating.
There are many things to consider and there are many different circumstances of usage which favor one or another.
Have you thought about saving heating expences with HID. I was all in LED and then, last winter, I had realised that I run 750 w heater to warm the room around tent and LED lights. That is why I bought HID to test it and worked good in winter. Instead of heating the room, HID was heating tent only. So in my particular case running HID in winter is overall cheaper because heater is off.
Now summer is coming, I will buy cooltube, send air outside the window and there will be no excessive heat in very hot days. Last summer with only LEDS it was terribly hot. This year I do not expect so excessive heat. LEDS are not built that way, that would be possible to pull their heat anywhere else but in the air around. Hot air is not only hot, it is dry too and that is not always ok.
So HIDs make more heat, but it is easy controlable (sometimes), LEDs make less heat but far from zero and is not controlable, you have it in the room, want it or not. I think that is one of the reasons why bigger grows do not go LED.
I have been running LED lights for one year now and I have changed 3 power supplies & two fans on fan models, 3 LED modules on no fan models. 5 different lights from two different manufacturers were affected.
Using LED you might see this one day. The central one is burnt. And module is dead, of course.
I would really like to see the cost of spare parts during ten years of using today LED. Buying LED modules, power supplies, thermal paste, fans and sending them with expensive DHL, waiting, then sitting and screwing all 80 f...ing little screws per single chinese light.
My estimate is that LED is 30% more effective as HID per watt in cold months. In the summer it will change for me, because I will run cooltube and make environment much better as with LEDs last year.
Have you thought about saving heating expences with HID. I was all in LED and then, last winter, I had realised that I run 750 w heater to warm the room around tent and LED lights. That is why I bought HID to test it and worked good in winter. Instead of heating the room, HID was heating tent only. So in my particular case running HID in winter is overall cheaper because heater is off.
Now summer is coming, I will buy cooltube, send air outside the window and there will be no excessive heat in very hot days. Last summer with only LEDS it was terribly hot. This year I do not expect so excessive heat. LEDS are not built that way, that would be possible to pull their heat anywhere else but in the air around. Hot air is not only hot, it is dry too and that is not always ok.
So HIDs make more heat, but it is easy controlable (sometimes), LEDs make less heat but far from zero and is not controlable, you have it in the room, want it or not. I think that is one of the reasons why bigger grows do not go LED.
I have been running LED lights for one year now and I have changed 3 power supplies & two fans on fan models, 3 LED modules on no fan models. 5 different lights from two different manufacturers were affected.
Using LED you might see this one day. The central one is burnt. And module is dead, of course.
I would really like to see the cost of spare parts during ten years of using today LED. Buying LED modules, power supplies, thermal paste, fans and sending them with expensive DHL, waiting, then sitting and screwing all 80 f...ing little screws per single chinese light.
My estimate is that LED is 30% more effective as HID per watt in cold months. In the summer it will change for me, because I will run cooltube and make environment much better as with LEDs last year.
You bring up a good point about leds putting heat into the room whether you like it or not, there is no way to vent the direct heat coming out of the sides or the tops of them. I noticed this when i grew with LEDS, Hygro Hybrid just did a video about this exact issue. He was mentioning that there needs to be a fixture on the top of them with 4 inch ducting to move that heat out in the summer if needed.
Also and update with gro blu, please don't take this as a thrashing of the company or lights! cause its not. I been in back and forth emails figuring out info about there fixtures. The last email i sent was asking about the Amp draw from each of there apollo lights. (kind of important). Its not listed on there website. Here is the response i got.......
"Sorry, I don't know the amp draw.
Sincerely,"
Hrmmmmmm what? i know they have been in business for a fair bit, didn't someone test this out? surely someone hooked these lights up to a kill a watt meter......
:no:
Also and update with gro blu, please don't take this as a thrashing of the company or lights! cause its not. I been in back and forth emails figuring out info about there fixtures. The last email i sent was asking about the Amp draw from each of there apollo lights. (kind of important). Its not listed on there website. Here is the response i got.......
"Sorry, I don't know the amp draw.
Sincerely,"
Hrmmmmmm what? i know they have been in business for a fair bit, didn't someone test this out? surely someone hooked these lights up to a kill a watt meter......
:no:
Yes, heat of LED lights destroys growing environment when hot. But not with one or two lights in the room only.
Yes, it is possible to suck air out, but we were told that LED lights do not produce much heat and we had not been prepared to suck air out for that reason. That happened to me last summer.
And sucking air out of hot tent or closet is not the same as cooltube. Cooltube separates two environments and heat does not dry air. You can pull air from out of grow room and it just passes by in closed tube. Or suck it from tent/closet and refresh that place also. With LEDs you can not do anything like that and it is necessary sometimes, at least for me.
Yes, it is possible to suck air out, but we were told that LED lights do not produce much heat and we had not been prepared to suck air out for that reason. That happened to me last summer.
And sucking air out of hot tent or closet is not the same as cooltube. Cooltube separates two environments and heat does not dry air. You can pull air from out of grow room and it just passes by in closed tube. Or suck it from tent/closet and refresh that place also. With LEDs you can not do anything like that and it is necessary sometimes, at least for me.
I don't know what LED units your using, but the heat issue is only if your running true equivalent wattage. My pair of "300" watt LED lights put out so little heat i don't need to run my air conditioner non stop, like i had to with my 600 watt MH, starting around the time temps were in the 50's F outside. When it hit 72+ the air conditioner couldn't even maintain a 70 degree temp inside. With my LED lights, I don't even turn the air conditioner on until the temp gets to 80, then I adjust it to maintain a 72 degree room ( My grow room is 1/2 of my computer room ). It also supplies my fresh air until i go to 12/12 and the girls start to smell, then I'll have a 6" can fan and carbon filter exhausting the air out of the room. Unless your running a sealed room, you HAVE to Exhaust the old air and draw in new anyway. Hygro's case is one of running a sealed room. In his case, he's right, and optional exhaust kit would be desirable.
LEDs that are driven to near their max rating ( ie 3 watt, 5 watt, etc. ) produce 10-18% more light than those only driven to 60% ( as most standard LED grow lights do ) yet they then produce 40% more heat. This is the biggest reason LEDs are under driven. 55-65% power rating produces the most light with the lowest heat output. Seems like a reasonable compromise to me. Also, the closer to their max rating, the faster they will fail.
long term costs? I can change the fans in my lights myself, their cheap to buy, in fact I've already ordered a set of replacements that I will change out at about one year of usage. Cost? $15 per light. replace LEDs, etc? I'll bet the failure rate is a lot lower than you think it is. Like anything else, you see LED failures, yes. All in units less than 3 months old. Just like buying a new car. Most warranty failures happen in the first 90 days. after that, you car is likely to run for years without failure. Well so should these lights. I've got a laptop that was made in 2000. It works perfect to this day. They run hot, yet they survive long years of service.
MH and HPS however need to have the bulbs replaced every 6 months to a year. If your buying quality bulbs, your taking $60-$80 dollars per bulb. lets say you think you can get away with using one a year
( they degrade over time a year old bulb may lose 20% or more of its output ).
If the LED last 5 years, I'll spend $75 for fans it may not really ever need. 5 years of an HPS changed just once a year, @ $60 is $300.
Now add in the electric usage. my 2 LED are saving me 33% or more per month on electric. I'll give you that in an unheated room, that waste heat from your MH/HPS is a bonus, not a loss, but for the majority, its just another headache. I'll save enough in electric costs to buy all the fans and parts I may need in one year of savings from not running the MH light, and some left over!. At the national average of $0.18 per KWH, I'll save $22.14 per month.
So if your growing in an unheated shed then grow autos and run that HPS light 24/0 7 days a week!
I for one will never switch back
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I'm in a hot climate. I concern myself over small amounts of heat which can add up. The Blackstars I have intake from the top and blow out the sides. I wish that were reversed. It would help get the modest heat from the LED to the top of the tent where the exhaust intake is.
I think Lyka had a good point about LEDs with a cooltube-type containment. The glass face of an LED makes it almost like a cooltube. If there was way to attach a tube to the top and connect it to the tent's exhaust tube it would be a cooltube. But, I don't know how that would interface to a carbon filter (without bypassing the filter and producing odor outside the tent).
I wonder if the fans on my Blackstars could be reversed to suck air through the LED. If I could do that, it wouldn't be hard to rig up a hood and tubing to route the air to the filter's surface. (Probably not worth the effort because, like you said, the heat isn't that great. If I could just aim the LED exhaust up I'd be happy.).
I think Lyka had a good point about LEDs with a cooltube-type containment. The glass face of an LED makes it almost like a cooltube. If there was way to attach a tube to the top and connect it to the tent's exhaust tube it would be a cooltube. But, I don't know how that would interface to a carbon filter (without bypassing the filter and producing odor outside the tent).
I wonder if the fans on my Blackstars could be reversed to suck air through the LED. If I could do that, it wouldn't be hard to rig up a hood and tubing to route the air to the filter's surface. (Probably not worth the effort because, like you said, the heat isn't that great. If I could just aim the LED exhaust up I'd be happy.).
