Lighting are LED's efficient?

[pop22]

I'm in a hot climate. I concern myself over small amounts of heat which can add up. The Blackstars I have intake from the top and blow out the sides. I wish that were reversed. It would help get the modest heat from the LED to the top of the tent where the exhaust intake is.

I think Lyka had a good point about LEDs with a cooltube-type containment. The glass face of an LED makes it almost like a cooltube. If there was way to attach a tube to the top and connect it to the tent's exhaust tube it would be a cooltube. But, I don't know how that would interface to a carbon filter (without bypassing the filter and producing odor outside the tent).

I wonder if the fans on my Blackstars could be reversed to suck air through the LED. If I could do that, it wouldn't be hard to rig up a hood and tubing to route the air to the filter's surface. (Probably not worth the effort because, like you said, the heat isn't that great. If I could just aim the LED exhaust up I'd be happy.).

I was going to say, flip your fans over, it should be that simple.

- - - Updated - - -

I'm in a hot climate. I concern myself over small amounts of heat which can add up. The Blackstars I have intake from the top and blow out the sides. I wish that were reversed. It would help get the modest heat from the LED to the top of the tent where the exhaust intake is.

I think Lyka had a good point about LEDs with a cooltube-type containment. The glass face of an LED makes it almost like a cooltube. If there was way to attach a tube to the top and connect it to the tent's exhaust tube it would be a cooltube. But, I don't know how that would interface to a carbon filter (without bypassing the filter and producing odor outside the tent).

I wonder if the fans on my Blackstars could be reversed to suck air through the LED. If I could do that, it wouldn't be hard to rig up a hood and tubing to route the air to the filter's surface. (Probably not worth the effort because, like you said, the heat isn't that great. If I could just aim the LED exhaust up I'd be happy.).

I was going to say, flip your fans over, it should be that simple.

 

[Gloomshade]

Kind of seems counter productive to draw from the top and blow out the sides with hot air rising and all that. My mars ii units are the same.

 

[az2000]

I was going to say, flip your fans over, it should be that simple.

Tonight I took my Blackstar 180w v2 HO apart. Now I see why the air is forced down (and out the sides). This creates the most airflow across the heat sinks, LED mounting surface, etc. A lot of turbulence where heat needs to be transferred the fastest.

If it pulled from the sides, I think it would require some engineering to transfer as much heat. Like, taller fins for the air to flow through.

If reversed, it would probably move more air because of the reduced turbulence. But, I think that would result in a "laminar stream." Turbulence causes more mixing and maximum temperature exchange. A calm flow of air is like a column with the outer edge moving against the hot surface the entire time, insulating the core of the column.

As LED technology matures I think we'll see things like hooded LED fixtures that would be ventilated by grow-room exhaust fans. Maybe auxiliary (backup) on-board fans controlled by temperature sensors.

Yesterday someone sent me a link to Solis-Tek. IMO, that's the direction we're going. Fanless, hooded, all white light, and easily interchangeable spectrum. All that's missing is a "time of day" feature where your plants could wake to reddish light, bask in noon-time blue light, and go to bed with a reddish sunset. (That and auxiliary fans as a backup.).

It will be interesting to see what their prices end up being. Might not be "prime time" yet. But, it seems brilliant to me.

 

[Muddy]

What wattage LEDs are you running? is your grow area sufficiently covered? Don't get me wrong, I take great stock in things you say, I just am curious as to the factors that lead you to your statement. I should think that true watt for watt comparison, without regard for what your growing should be very close. Also, its possible that the new generation lights with 5 watt LEDs are generating even more intense light level. If you had an even PAR for both lights, and considering LED is more directional, I'd thing the penetration would be equal or better, unless that tight beam is responsible for the possibly reduced penetration because of less scattered/reflected light. Just some food for thought, I'm just speculating.

I'm running 1,680 watts actual draw in a well insulated shed with Orka film on the walls. The area is basically 8' wide by 8' high by 16' long. The actual coverage area is about 5' wide by 9' long. The LEDs are all 3 watt with 60 and 90 degree lenses. In flower the lights are about 16" above the canopy top. Anything lower than that I start to get bleaching. That gives me good penetration on about the top 2 1/2 feet of the plant. Below that I'm only getting immature popcorn. I've not grown with 5 watters but I would expect their higher intensity would provide deeper penetration, however, that same high intensity might require them to be set higher, which could negate the added penetration.

 

[Gloomshade]

All that's missing is a "time of day" feature where your plants could wake to reddish light, bask in noon-time blue light, and go to bed with a reddish sunset.

There's some aquarium LED's that have that.

 

[mauricem00]

I dont think a watt equals a watt at all when comparing HID and LED.

A watt is a derived unit of power.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_pressure_sodium#High_pressure_sodium

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Light_emitting_diode

The method each of these technologies use to convert power into light is so different...There is no way you could say a 600w HPS = a 600w LED.

this seems to be a simple question to resolve.with the grow room sealed (no vent) how much does the temperature rise with with the grow light on? what is not being emitted as radiant heat is being emitted as radiant light. if your grow room heats up less you are getting more light.simple test definitive answer.

 

[mauricem00]

[/LIST]

I don't know if that's true. See this video where they conclude a smaller UFO produced better results than a more powerful (wattage) HPS: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fh9oGroryoc

At one point the argument was that LEDs allowed us to focus energy into specific bands the plant uses most, not wasting energy on green (for example). But, now there's a growing trend toward full-spectrum white LED light. That seems to eliminate some of the efficiency attributed to LEDs.

But, even a full spectrum white LED like Area 51's new XGS model (which draws 195 watts) is producing great results that people would normally see with a 400w HID. There still seems to be some efficiency converting energy to light compared to traditional lighting. Less heat, lower electricity bill.

I don't know much more about it than that. Look forward to reading more knowledgeable responses.

this shift towards white leds may be due to growing recognition that plants use the whole spectrum of visible light so getting the right balance may provide better result than just targeting certain pigments. grow light makers are moving in this direction

 

[mauricem00]

This worries me about Black Dog: "proprietary Phyto-genesis Spectrum"

I don't see their spectrum nor ratio mentioned anywhere, and like California Lightworks, Black Dog is expensive for what appear to be LG/TopLED lights.

I feel like LEDs are maturing and becoming commoditized. I'm sure it's a challenge for those who've developed reputations, invested in earlier advancements, etc. But, the bottom line is that spectrum and ratio is no longer something that can be kept a secret. Companies like Fero, Grow Northern, Area 51, Hans, et. al., are evolving their spectrum and publishing it. GN and A51 go as far as to publish the actual LED part numbers.

It's becoming more like Open Source where the companies have to compete on more tangible attributes like quality of materials, service, warranty, proprietary modulating drivers, etc. When I see stuff like "proprietary spectrum" (or "blend" as CLW calls it), I see someone trying to maintain an edge through marketing. The allure of having something "secret" that will give you an edge. Fake secrecy (which doesn't exist, because anyone can uncover the spectrum and ratio after buying a light) coupled with inordinately high prices doesn't have a ring of truth to it (IMO). It looks like struggling to maintain a comfy position among increasing competition.

If you're not on a budget, I'd encourage you to support those who are leading innovation and publishing what they're asking you to feed your plants.

If you are on a budget, you can model a desirable spectrum through a custom Cidly Apollo. Hansbrick, Tang (and some with him) did it. It's discussed here. (<<link) The Alibaba seller is mentioned in that thread as well as a few different leading spectrum/ratios.

I just ordered one for $149 with free shipping. That's a nice option to model a light's NPK equivalent (the spectrum you're going to "feed" the plant) before buying into better components, stronger light, longer warranties, better (higher paid) support. I'm modeling the GN's rebel module (I specified same spectrum, and half the number of bulbs because Cidly is 15 pieces while GN's rebel is 30). I anticipate getting the new GN when it's available. But, this let's me get a taste. And, I'll end up with a backup light.

My point is: Why support a company that doesn't let you model what they're asking you to feed your plants? The offensive part of that protectionism is that competitors can easily discover the spectrum and ratio. Consumers can too (with a bit of effort). So, it's not really a "secret." All it does is keep consumers ignorant. When there are companies out there setting a better example, why support those promoting "closed source" practices? Especially at those inflated prices?

TopLED does the fake "secret" thing too. But, their prices are bargain basement by comparison. It's hard to understand what they're trying to protect. It seems more innocent, like a practice they thought was "normal." Given the value of their lights (you get a lot of bulb for the money), fewer people are inclined to care?

But, these mega-expensive guys with "Blend-o-Matic(tm)" nonsense, I think they're going to be less relevant as time goes on. I mean, today consumers can buy a radio spectrometer for $40. It doesn't make sense to promulgate a high-priced "Secret Sauce(tm)" when anyone could measure each bulb and publish those details. I'd much rather support someone like Area-51 who says "here's the Cree part number."

Good luck. I'm sure those expensive models are good, and that people have good grows. (I can point you to 3 grow journals for A51's new all-white XGS light. Monster, lush, leafy plants.).

I just bought a mars hydro 300 watt light. the spectrum was published in the ad and when I e- mailed topled to sek the color temprature of the white led they use they answered in 1 day (time difference it was 9pm their time when I emailed) gave me the information I asked for and told me of another site where they recruited beta testers and openly discussed their lights with growers.including why they made certain design choices.I have no experiance or knowledge about other companies but I found this one to be very open and helpful. there seems to be a lot of disagreement among companies about the best spectrum and it would be nice if a company offered an affordable light and let you chose your spectrum

 

[mauricem00]

There are many things to consider and there are many different circumstances of usage which favor one or another.

Have you thought about saving heating expences with HID. I was all in LED and then, last winter, I had realised that I run 750 w heater to warm the room around tent and LED lights. That is why I bought HID to test it and worked good in winter. Instead of heating the room, HID was heating tent only. So in my particular case running HID in winter is overall cheaper because heater is off.

Now summer is coming, I will buy cooltube, send air outside the window and there will be no excessive heat in very hot days. Last summer with only LEDS it was terribly hot. This year I do not expect so excessive heat. LEDS are not built that way, that would be possible to pull their heat anywhere else but in the air around. Hot air is not only hot, it is dry too and that is not always ok.

So HIDs make more heat, but it is easy controlable (sometimes), LEDs make less heat but far from zero and is not controlable, you have it in the room, want it or not. I think that is one of the reasons why bigger grows do not go LED.

I have been running LED lights for one year now and I have changed 3 power supplies & two fans on fan models, 3 LED modules on no fan models. 5 different lights from two different manufacturers were affected.

Using LED you might see this one day. The central one is burnt. And module is dead, of course.

View attachment 356943

I would really like to see the cost of spare parts during ten years of using today LED. Buying LED modules, power supplies, thermal paste, fans and sending them with expensive DHL, waiting, then sitting and screwing all 80 f...ing little screws per single chinese light.

My estimate is that LED is 30% more effective as HID per watt in cold months. In the summer it will change for me, because I will run cooltube and make environment much better as with LEDs last year.

every growing situation is different. us what works best for you. I personally prefer high efficiency
fluorescent like T5s or 2g11 55 watt cfls. I like muddy ideal of using leds and fluorescent together and two light makers are using this hybrid approach one uses uv tubes on their led lights another uses 660nm led pontoons on their induction lights all lights have advantages and weaknesses use which ever light or combination that works best for you

 

[mauricem00]

There are many things to consider and there are many different circumstances of usage which favor one or another.

Have you thought about saving heating expences with HID. I was all in LED and then, last winter, I had realised that I run 750 w heater to warm the room around tent and LED lights. That is why I bought HID to test it and worked good in winter. Instead of heating the room, HID was heating tent only. So in my particular case running HID in winter is overall cheaper because heater is off.

Now summer is coming, I will buy cooltube, send air outside the window and there will be no excessive heat in very hot days. Last summer with only LEDS it was terribly hot. This year I do not expect so excessive heat. LEDS are not built that way, that would be possible to pull their heat anywhere else but in the air around. Hot air is not only hot, it is dry too and that is not always ok.

So HIDs make more heat, but it is easy controlable (sometimes), LEDs make less heat but far from zero and is not controlable, you have it in the room, want it or not. I think that is one of the reasons why bigger grows do not go LED.

I have been running LED lights for one year now and I have changed 3 power supplies & two fans on fan models, 3 LED modules on no fan models. 5 different lights from two different manufacturers were affected.

Using LED you might see this one day. The central one is burnt. And module is dead, of course.

View attachment 356943

I would really like to see the cost of spare parts during ten years of using today LED. Buying LED modules, power supplies, thermal paste, fans and sending them with expensive DHL, waiting, then sitting and screwing all 80 f...ing little screws per single chinese light.

My estimate is that LED is 30% more effective as HID per watt in cold months. In the summer it will change for me, because I will run cooltube and make environment much better as with LEDs last year.

all solid state components have a rated life expectancy of 50-100k hours. when was the last time you had a TV or stereo or any other electronic gadget last that long? why should leds be any different.buy from a company with good customer service and the longest warranty you can get ( usually 3 years)