Live Stoner Chat CO2 Production

[TxOld Dude]

What about liquid carbon (co2) supplements for aquarium plants, such as the brand API Co2 Booster, etc...?

 

[Son of Hobbes]

That link to that forum didn't really prove anything with the roots supposedly taking CO2 in. And the link on the forum to the "study that proves it" brought me to a CO2 soil tab manufacturers website.

Make sure you have a tube going from your bottle directly on-top of the plant. Co2 is heavier than air and concentrates itself on the soil. Make sure you don't have any air-flow on the plant itself or the Co2 will just go into the air and be extracted from your grow room/tent.

The Co2 needs to fall on the soil and concentrate itself, this is where the roots will start to pull it down and use it to boost photosynthesis production.

Plants are capable of absorbing Co2 through leaves and root. Leaves are able to absorb more. But with my own private research I've found that the roots do indeed inhibit faster growth when applied to directly ontop of the soil. Roots are only able to absorb something like 30% - 40% of available Co2.



CO2 is absorbed through the leaves of cannabis; not the roots. CO2 is absorbed during photosynthesis and is primarily utilized while the lights are on (the photosynthetic part.)

This is taken from Ed Rosenthal:

Cannabis uses CO2 only in the presence of light. Photosynthesis occurs immediately after the plant receives light. The plant starts mining CO2 from the air by opening its stomata, tiny organs found on the leaf surface, primarily on the underside. They function much like pores in the skin. They regulate the absorption of water, gas, oxygen, (O2), and CO2 into the plant, as well as the evacuation of water and O2 from the plant.

But with my own private research I've found that the roots do indeed inhibit faster growth when applied to directly ontop of the soil.

The word "inhibit" means to stop, or prevent. I think you meant to say "exhibit." Although I think that's a still an erroneous statement based on the above information.

CO2 is carbon dioxide. It's measured in Parts Per Million (ppm.) The average ppm concentration in the atmosphere is between 300 and 400 ppm. Here's a little break down on ppm concentrations and their effects:

Normal CO2 Levels
The effects of increased CO2 levels on adults at good health can be summarized:

normal outdoor level: 350 - 450 ppm
acceptable levels: < 600 ppm
complaints of stiffness and odors: 600 - 1000 ppm
ASHRAE and OSHA standards: 1000 ppm
general drowsiness: 1000 - 2500 ppm
adverse health effects expected: 2500 - 5000 ppm
maximum allowed concentration within a 8 hour working period: 5000 ppm

Anything over 5000 ppm is considered a dangerous concentration. It's possible to be in an area with high concentrations of CO2 with no real ill health effects for a short period of time; a lot of this stuff is more time exposure dependent.

From my research; plant growth is most noticeable between 1000 and 1500 ppm of CO2. Anything over 1500 ppm starts causing toxic sickness to the plants. From what I've read; it seems like between 400 and 1000 ppm of CO2; the benefits are less noticeable than at concentrations of 1000-1500 (so basically around 1200 ppm CO2 is the sweet spot.)

I looked into CO2 injecting water; seems like a really bad idea. CO2 can really jack up the pH of water; and you're replacing oxygen molecules with CO2, which actually deprives the water of oxygen (which is actually what the roots need.) Pumping CO2 into the soil would, based on the science behind it; reduce the oxygen levels available to the roots.

Here's a CO2 calculator to figure out your CO2 needs based on the dimensions of your grow room:

CO2 Room Area Calculator

Here's some scientific food for thought with using sugar in a fermenting reaction:

The fermentation reaction is:

C6H12O6 = 2 C2H5OH + 2 CO2

So 1 mole of sugar yields 2 moles of ethanol and 2 moles of CO2. The MW of sugar is 180 (6 x 12 + 12 x 1 + 6 x 16) and the MW of CO2 is 44 (1 x 12 + 2 x 16).
Therefore, 180 grams of sugar yields 2 x 44 or 88 gms of CO2. This means that 1 gram of sugar produces 0.244 grams of CO2.

There's a formula to convert grams per liter into parts per million. If you knew what your concentration was in the volume you planned on fermenting in; you should actually be able to ballpark a CO2 ppm production percentage based on your fermentation. It's not 100% by any means (nor controlled,) but a DIY system absolutely can create and dispense CO2.

Unless you go down the route of environmental control playing with Co2 is more hassle than its worth. Keep it simple.

I disagree with this, Liontamer; environmental control should actually be a #1 priority for indoor growing. There's a reason you have a grow space or tent inside (environmentally controlled,) away from pests and pathogens (environmentally controlled,) on a light schedule with intensity you control (environmentally controlled,) with air movement and exchange (environmentally controlled.) So you see, dear friend, you're already environmentally controlling in your grow :smokebuds: If you aren't skimping in any of those departments, with a little tweaking I think CO2 can be added to almost any setup. It's a question more of it CO2 is feasible for your setup based on your environmental conditions.

But that's just my

 

[Smokey]

That link to that forum didn't really prove anything with the roots supposedly taking CO2 in. And the link on the forum to the "study that proves it" brought me to a CO2 soil tab manufacturers website.





CO2 is absorbed through the leaves of cannabis; not the roots. CO2 is absorbed during photosynthesis and is primarily utilized while the lights are on (the photosynthetic part.)

This is taken from Ed Rosenthal:




The word "inhibit" means to stop, or prevent. I think you meant to say "exhibit." Although I think that's a still an erroneous statement based on the above information.

CO2 is carbon dioxide. It's measured in Parts Per Million (ppm.) The average ppm concentration in the atmosphere is between 300 and 400 ppm. Here's a little break down on ppm concentrations and their effects:

Normal CO2 Levels
The effects of increased CO2 levels on adults at good health can be summarized:

normal outdoor level: 350 - 450 ppm
acceptable levels: < 600 ppm
complaints of stiffness and odors: 600 - 1000 ppm
ASHRAE and OSHA standards: 1000 ppm
general drowsiness: 1000 - 2500 ppm
adverse health effects expected: 2500 - 5000 ppm
maximum allowed concentration within a 8 hour working period: 5000 ppm

Anything over 5000 ppm is considered a dangerous concentration. It's possible to be in an area with high concentrations of CO2 with no real ill health effects for a short period of time; a lot of this stuff is more time exposure dependent.

From my research; plant growth is most noticeable between 1000 and 1500 ppm of CO2. Anything over 1500 ppm starts causing toxic sickness to the plants. From what I've read; it seems like between 400 and 1000 ppm of CO2; the benefits are less noticeable than at concentrations of 1000-1500 (so basically around 1200 ppm CO2 is the sweet spot.)

I looked into CO2 injecting water; seems like a really bad idea. CO2 can really jack up the pH of water; and you're replacing oxygen molecules with CO2, which actually deprives the water of oxygen (which is actually what the roots need.) Pumping CO2 into the soil would, based on the science behind it; reduce the oxygen levels available to the roots.

Here's a CO2 calculator to figure out your CO2 needs based on the dimensions of your grow room:

CO2 Room Area Calculator

Here's some scientific food for thought with using sugar in a fermenting reaction:



There's a formula to convert grams per liter into parts per million. If you knew what your concentration was in the volume you planned on fermenting in; you should actually be able to ballpark a CO2 ppm production percentage based on your fermentation. It's not 100% by any means (nor controlled,) but a DIY system absolutely can create and dispense CO2.



I disagree with this, Liontamer; environmental control should actually be a #1 priority for indoor growing. There's a reason you have a grow space or tent inside (environmentally controlled,) away from pests and pathogens (environmentally controlled,) on a light schedule with intensity you control (environmentally controlled,) with air movement and exchange (environmentally controlled.) So you see, dear friend, you're already environmentally controlling in your grow :smokebuds: If you aren't skimping in any of those departments, with a little tweaking I think CO2 can be added to almost any setup. It's a question more of it CO2 is feasible for your setup based on your environmental conditions.

But that's just my

Top Notch Vapohaizer, :gthumb:

ye coulnt have explained it better, i had a feeling Co2 for roots is just not feasible....

Smokey out :smokebuds:

 

[tokaite]

@Vaporizer :thumbs: said it all.
Just to you could raise the Co2 level over 1500, like 3000 ppm for an hour to control pests...

Peace!

 

[Muddy]

@Vaporizer :thumbs: said it all.
Just to you could raise the Co2 level over 1500, like 3000 ppm for an hour to control pests...

Peace!

I've seen people try that with mixed results. Seemed to work on things like white flies and thrips, but not spider mites. To really be effective you would probably have to go all the way to 5,000 ppm.

 

[tokaite]

I've seen people try that with mixed results. Seemed to work on things like white flies and thrips, but not spider mites. To really be effective you would probably have to go all the way to 5,000 ppm.

You are absolutly right about 5000 ppm ( @ 1 hour and 1/2 up to 2 hours) but was shy to suggest to go that high not good need to be cautious and better in a phytotron.
And it does work on all species at that regem

Peace!

 

[DABaracuss]

Is there any cheep way to measure the co2 in a space?..maybe a co2 detector lol I would like to see how much I can get into my tent with a shroom bucket and yeast reactors.:stylez rasta smoke:

 

[TxOld Dude]

Not meaning to dis anybody here, but...I disagree.

Addition of CO2 to aquariums for fresh water plant life is common via continuous direct CO2 bubbler systems and many other types as well as "liquid carbon" (see the last quote). I will disagree with you about CO2 displacing O2 in water as it does not. If it did there would be a LOT of dead fish. Nor does it change the ph, UNLESS you're using a system that uses a chemical reaction to create the CO2 (reaction material gets in the water). The "liquid carbon" brands I looked at claimed to not affect the ph at all, but obviously they incorporate ph buffers.

The question is are plants able to absorb CO2 through their root systems.

The answer is...Maybe. Carbon molecules...definitely.
Soil injection of CO2 definitely enhances microbial action and is a common practice.

Remember, plants ingest CO2 and exhaust O2. What is now missing? The carbon. Plants aren't specific to CO2, it's the carbon they want. CO2 - C = O2

After I placed this question last night I continued searching and found some (semi-unrelated) data about plant CO2 usage.
I came across several studies that indicated that a plants response to atmospheric CO2 not only enhanced root production and growth, but also increased the plant water use efficiency and enhanced the microbial action in the soil. As the PPM increase up toward 1500ppm or better, then temperature becomes the limiting factor. To process more CO2 at greater concentrations requires temps into the 80-85 degree range. But then everything else increases as well; water consumption, nutes, increased photosynthesis (more lights!). Some tests were as high as 10K ppm with very positive results.

It is truly a very complex subject, but i think it's safe to say that CO2 is beneficial on multiple levels.

Here's some links to some of the data...

http://afrsweb.usda.gov/SP2UserFiles/Place/64200500/csr/ResearchPubs/rogers/rogers_92a.pdf
Plants
CO2 Science
Roots
CO2 Science
Hydro
http://www.simplyhydro.com/carbon_liquid.htm

Another tidbit on liquid carbon (product specific):

"Flourish Excel is a simple source of readily available organic carbon. All plants require a source of carbon. This is typically obtained from CO2, but, may also be obtained via relatively simple organic compounds (such as photosynthetic intermediates). Since both processes occur simultaneously one can derive a substantial benefit with the use of Flourish Excel either alone or in conjunction with CO2 injection. Flourish Excel also has iron reducing properties which promote the ferrous state of iron (Fe+2), which is more easily utilized by plants than ferric iron (Fe+3). Flourish Excel is recommended for use with the entire family of Flourish products as well as our gravel, Flourite, our GH builder, Equilibrium, and our non-phosphate buffers, Acid Buffer ™ and Alkaline Buffer.

The reason plants need CO2 is to produce longer chain carbon compounds also known as photosynthetic intermediates. photosynthetic intermediates includes compounds such as ribulose 1,5-bisphosphate, and 2-carboxy-3-keto-D-arabinitol 1,5 bisphosphate. Although the names are complicated, the structures are quite simple (5 carbon chains). Flourish Excel™ does not contain these specific compounds per se, but one that is quite similar. By dosing with Flourish Excel™ you bypass the involvement of CO2 and introduce the already finished, structurally similar compounds. It is in its structural similarity that Flourish Excel™ is able to be utilized in the carbon chain building process of photosynthesis. Simple chemical or enzymatic steps can easily convert it to any one to any one of the above named compounds (or a variety of others).

Instructions:
On initial use or after a major water change, use 10 mL for every 80 Liters (20 gallons). Thereafter use 1 mL for every 40 Liters (10 gallons) daily or every other day. Use the enclosed dispenser to measure 1 mL (top mark). For larger volume tanks, note that 1 capful = 5 mL.

Specifications:
250 mL will treat 50 gallons for 1-2 months"

Just my 2 cents though I answered my own question. Wish I hadn't asked it now.
But as I said, not trying to dis anyone...

Fish

 

[Muddy]

You are absolutly right about 5000 ppm ( @ 1 hour and 1/2 up to 2 hours) but was shy to suggest to go that high not good need to be cautious and better in a phytotron.
And it does work on all species at that regem

Peace!

Yes, should have added that a concentration of 5,000 ppm can be deadly to humans as well so extreme caution is advised.

 

[DABaracuss]

SO no simple way to measure the CO2 for the simple folk without fancy tanks and burners?:stylez rasta smoke: