Deficiency or burn?

[Rev. Green Genes]

I’m going to install it outdoors primarily for the garden but I can fill 1 gallon jugs for drinking water. It robs too much pressure for the house. When we can afford it I’m going to get a softener for the house. The RO system I’m buying has built in pre-filters (sediment and Carbon) before it gets to the two RO membranes. It also has a flush system to help maintain the membranes.

What do you think about that feeding I just gave? Think it might help?

Its the final RO stage that slows it down, the membrane filter. The pre-filter system I showed you does not really effect my water pressure at all. You are going to need a pre-filter for a softener tank anyway. You would be surprised how much longer appliances last if you do the whole house pre-filter, use less laundry soap, no more hard water marks on sinks and tubs. And if you put in a regular home sized RO system, the filter replacement time doubles.

 

[DTOM420]

@DTOM420 This is copy pasted from Wikipedia, I was curious of makes up the ppm in water myself so I did a quick search. Hard water is water that has high mineral content (in contrast with "soft water"). Hard water is formed when water percolates through deposits of limestone and chalk which are largely made up of calcium and magnesium carbonates. I think its weird too that only the indoor plants are affected by it, I would think that all plants would suffer similar issues. Maybe the plants are a little more sensitive in a indoor environment. I haven't done a outdoor grow yet but that's my theory. I want to try a outdoor organic next summer.

Water’s hardness is not all of the ppm in the water - it’s only part. I’ve had it tested for hardness by 2 companies and both said that it’s got 6 grains per gallon which is actually pretty low hardness for our area that’s all limestone. It’s identical to the PH of our soil. However, we ought to have a lower ppm number with that moderately hard number. So, that leaves me wondering what else is in there like a bunch of sodium or sulphur or whatever. I ordered that RO system today and already have a tracking number. So, we’ll see what happens after I can feed that RO’d water.

 

[DTOM420]

Its the final RO stage that slows it down, the membrane filter. The pre-filter system I showed you does not really effect my water pressure at all. You are going to need a pre-filter for a softener tank anyway. You would be surprised how much longer appliances last if you do the whole house pre-filter, use less laundry soap, no more hard water marks on sinks and tubs. And if you put in a regular home sized RO system, the filter replacement time doubles.

Yeah, I’m definitely putting a couple sediment filters in before it feeds into a softener but I can’t afford a system yet. This is just for my growing and for drinking at home. We’ll refill some 1 gallon jugs and use them out of the fridge.

 

[Natsu]

@DTOM420 To be honest I though the ppm directly related to the waters hardness, so thanks for clarifying that for me. I'm curious now as to what actually makes up the ppm. As you said, its probably sodium, sulfur and other soluble minerals. I'm looking forward to seeing how the RO water will affect the plants, do you have a journal up I can follow?

 

[DTOM420]

I just looked it up and 6 grains hardness equates to 107ppm so that leaves 808-918ppm of ‘who knows what.’ Lol. That’s a lot of unknown. The well is 250’ deep but there’s a large ag operation right next door and I guess it’s possible that some bad stuff has leached that far down. Most likely is some sulphur and sodium but what else, I don’t know. Water testing to determine all the things in well water is very expensive.

You’re very kind to offer to follow my journal and for your efforts to help. I don’t think I have any followers to my journal. Certainly not many, anyway. Lol! Here’s a link to it: https://www.autoflower.org/threads/phineas-dtoms-fabuous-skunky-adventure.67328/ I can use all the help I can get!

I’m thinking about trying Coots’ soil recipe the next time I start some plants. I wish I could afford to mix up some soil and send it in for testing, re-amend and re-test until I get a perfect mix. But, it seems like Coots mix is pretty proven and isn’t expensive to mix up. So that may be the route I go if the RO doesn’t improve my situation.

Thanks for your help and interest!

 

[Waira]

say again on your water's ppm's? it's 1000+, and only 100+ of it Ca hardness?! Did I miss this somewhere, or forget to ask you about it? Holy crap man, whatever is in there, it's the most likely cause of the ongoing problems,... All those dissolved solids are bad as is, but add nutes in, and you're compounding the load; this screws with not just the osmotic deal with the roots vs soil, those other unknown ions can have negative impacts on the other plant nute's uptake, and potential bad chemistry reactions,...
This make more sense with the mixed variety of symptoms you have,.... One tricky thing with K: both defc. and toxicity issues present the same burning on the margin teeth- ... you could have a simple lack of, too much, competitive uptake problems from all the other crap in the water, even if plenty is present,... roots may be feeling the burn as well, which kicks off the whole TARFU gig here,....
If you do get a water softener, the ion exchange type that needs a monster salt charged flushing to reset the CEC, be warned that the salt ions will be in the water, that is Na, or sometimes K.....

 

[DTOM420]

say again on your water's ppm's? it's 1000+, and only 100+ of it Ca hardness?! Did I miss this somewhere, or forget to ask you about it? Holy crap man, whatever is in there, it's the most likely cause of the ongoing problems,... All those dissolved solids are bad as is, but add nutes in, and you're compounding the load; this screws with not just the osmotic deal with the roots vs soil, those other unknown ions can have negative impacts on the other plant nute's uptake, and potential bad chemistry reactions,...
This make more sense with the mixed variety of symptoms you have,.... One tricky thing with K: both defc. and toxicity issues present the same burning on the margin teeth- ... you could have a simple lack of, too much, competitive uptake problems from all the other crap in the water, even if plenty is present,... roots may be feeling the burn as well, which kicks off the whole TARFU gig here,....
If you do get a water softener, the ion exchange type that needs a monster salt charged flushing to reset the CEC, be warned that the salt ions will be in the water, that is Na, or sometimes K.....

Thanks @Waira ! Yes, you know my struggles. Lol. What a PITA. What is “TARFU?”

I have an RO system arriving Monday. It makes up to 300 gallons of water per day. That’s what I’m going to use for my gardening and for filling drinking water containers. It will be mounted PRIOR to any water softener for the house. I can’t afford a softener system right now, anyway - it’s $2,500! And I’ve always heard that softened water is horrible for gardening. Initially. I’m going to set up the RO system on a piece of board and plumb in hose connections so that I can move it around and hook it to a hose. That way I can move it around. The RO system only cost $218 and the filters are pretty cheap. Even the membranes aren’t crazy expensive to replace but they can be flushed as well so should last quite a while before needing replacement.

Given the soil recipe I used (posted earlier) do you think a deficiency is even possible?? I’m suspecting toxicity more than deficiency. But you’re the expert. I gave it a very big feed with MC, microblast, Recharge, Mammoth P and mycorrhizae (in my well water the TDS reading was over 1800 with all that) and things are still getting worse. So, yesterday, I went and bought some RO’d water at the store and watered heavily with just plain RO water. I didn’t know what else to do. I’d like to give them nothing but RO water for a week and see how they do. What are your thoughts on this?

Distilled water is easier to find. Can I give them the distilled?

 

[Waira]

sorry mate, slang terms there,.. PITA = pain in the ass; military slang TARFU = things are really fucked up (SNAFU- situation normal, all fucked up; FUBAR- fucked up beyond all repair!)
Sure RO/DI, even good drinking water will be low-to-no ppm's,...RO or Di is just describing how the water was purified..... I use those self-fill units at grocery stores in a pinch, much cheaper if that's an option, otherwise spring/drinking water is just fine,.... it's the ionic load that's killin' ya meantime, nothing will "fix" that but elimination,....

 

[DTOM420]

sorry mate, slang terms there,.. PITA = pain in the ass; military slang TARFU = things are really fucked up (SNAFU- situation normal, all fucked up; FUBAR- fucked up beyond all repair!)
Sure RO/DI, even good drinking water will be low-to-no ppm's,...RO or Di is just describing how the water was purified..... I use those self-fill units at grocery stores in a pinch, much cheaper if that's an option, otherwise spring/drinking water is just fine,.... it's the ionic load that's killin' ya meantime, nothing will "fix" that but elimination,....

Thanks @Waira ! This would explain SO much and so many struggles I’ve had. Totally MY luck to have a problem that’s difficult to diagnose. Lol!

Would you suggest just watering the younger plants (60 days or less) plants in the soil mixture I listed with plain filtered water; and add nutes to the filtered water to the older (more than 60 days) plants in the grow? The older photos are pretty big and I want to flip them as soon as I get them straightened out. I can see where the soil could be somewhat nute depleted as they’re approaching 100 days in the same 10 gallons of OF, compost and perlite. Or, should I give them all the filtered water only for a while - how long?

The other acronyms I knew (and use) but I didn’t know “TARFU.” Good on ya, for the head’s up! As always, thanks for your help!

 

[Waira]

... well, there's what what's likely best to do, and what possible,... younger plants for sure, get them on lower ppm water ASAP; bigger plants are loaded, a flush wouldn't be a bad idea,.. testing the run-off would be wise too, just to see how badly loaded the soil has become... as long as the soil is in this state, nute will hard for the plant to pick up for reasons already explained,... giving the filtered water only doens't remove the crap ions that are there, not being utilized by the plant but still interfering,... next watering, try this; use low ppm water, and water until you get about 20% run-off... this will saturate the pot, but if you flush, that's going to happen anyway... flushing needs about 2-3x the pot volume, put though fast as possible to limit the smothering (O2 deprivation) of the roots,... Anywa, collect it in a clean saucer or something, and test it, pH too just for shits and giggles,.....