Live Stoner Chat Definition of Fire, Mids, and the rest…?

[Jpkindbud]

So, as the header says, what is your definitions of each? Maybe I am old school (52) but I don’t understand. I know what “dank” is from the old greatful dead days… but what constitutes top shelf, mids, and lowers?

My son always tells people I have “homegrown” and back in the day homegrown was less than mid quality IMPO. But my homegrown will blow the top of your head off! So… what is your personal opinion? Give it to us straight!

 

[Jpkindbud]

So, as the header says, what is your definitions of each? Maybe I am old school (52) but I don’t understand. I know what “dank” is from the old greatful dead days… but what constitutes top shelf, mids, and lowers?

My son always tells people I have “homegrown” and back in the day homegrown was less than mid quality IMPO. But my homegrown will blow the top of your head off! So… what is your personal opinion? Give it to us straight!

This is open for opinions… discussion, etc. what do y’all believe?

 

[elcoloan]

I like these discussions... so just to give some ideas... maybe from a consumer's perspective top bud is big, dense and resinous and properly manicured... so more of a top shelf idea from the bag appeal perspective; while From a grower's view it's a properly matured bud?

 

[Waira]

So, as the header says, what is your definitions of each? Maybe I am old school (52) but I don’t understand. I know what “dank” is from the old greatful dead days… but what constitutes top shelf, mids, and lowers?

My son always tells people I have “homegrown” and back in the day homegrown was less than mid quality IMPO. But my homegrown will blow the top of your head off! So… what is your personal opinion? Give it to us straight!

As they saying goes: all things are relative!
It's a moving goal post for sure Jp', so much has changed from genetics to marketing... A lot of "greasy kids stuff" thing out there, but older tokers like you and I have developed sophistication that is LOST on much of the rest of the younger toking culture...
The relentless quest for higher and higher THC levels, to the tune that this is all that matters to many,... and all the pricing is based on it in the sales market =

.... I'm seeing the most absurd THC% claims now, CopyCat Genetics in particular... that fucker makes great stuff for a fact, but 38+% is a lie, sorry... testing has it's dark side to say nothing of margins of error, cheating/rigging, etc.,...
Botanically speaking, a plant making this amount of secondary metabolites is just nonsense...

The explosion of the concentrate market is very notable IMO,... 80-90+% THC, holy fuck, might as well switch to heroin for fuck's sake!
No wonder so many can't get a decent buzz off even "top shelf"...

All this has the unfortunate effect of many folks missing the best parts of the experience, the quality and nature of a high, not just how technically chemically potent it is (hit-per-hit), that's a very linear and sorry way of seeing it.

Some may get it intellectually, but not so much in practical reality...

This why I grow so many different cultivars, even as a lightweight/low volume consumer. I want a full spectrum of "highs", from heavy gravity couch-lock to middle ground to up-beat floaty to strapped-on, white-knuckled cruise missile ride with Iron Butterfly playing in your head!
...not every high for anytime is the way to go, the "right tool for the right job" is my MO....

Potency is a broader assessment to me, not just how many hits it takes... Peoples tolerances vary so much as well, so between these things there's no way to standardize such an assessment as "fire, mids, etc.".... Only the fucking dispensaries are doing this, all based on %THC and marketing hype, along with all the silly-ass pop culture cross names and the kiddie cartoon graphics!

Simplistic views of McConsumers are part of the silliness. Colors, apparent trichome amounts, density and the like don't always equate to "fire"...all that glitters isn't gold sometimes! And pretty doesn't get you high....

IME I've had or grown stuff that didn't impress the eye, but offered gob-smacking potency/effects. Some of the ugliest bud I've had was amazing! A long while back I got hold of some OD grown Pineapple Thai that looked fugly at casual glance, but not all bud shines well even if the trichs are there. The aroma of this stuff blew me away too, to date one of the richest I've encountered, pure artificial pineapple flavoring, like uncanny! ...awesome high quality and just a couple hits off of other resin smothered bud stuff (tested in the 20's%)...

Conversely I've had bud that was very well frosted, gorgeous in looks, but offered up a surprisingly weak, short-lived and bland buzz...

One of my fav's this season is the Burmese Pure, showing to me much more potent than she looks and offers a wonderful clean happy-uppy "Sativa" high that I like better than the Haze/Thai crosses I've had in the past... aroma is to die for, tropical fruity citrus candy floral goodness!

I put quotes around Sativa and Indica because these are purely conventional terms, generalizations that aren't valid really in any sense anymore.
Botanically/taxonomically, they are plain wrong... So is the narrow leaf vs. wide leaf thing to a degree, especially in hybrids which of course are about 99% of what's out there.
Only true landrace NLD/WLD can claim some factual truth to this and the associated high characters they offer, namely body vs. head,...or "stoned" vs. "high"if you will.... Even so, studies and experienced growers know that even in a population of so-called landrace/heirlooms there can be significant leaf width variations, to say nothing of what environmental/nutritional effects influence this...
Point is, like so much canna-related, take it as a generalization, not dogma!

There are some interesting research papers on the chemistry differences between Sati's and Indi's out there. Much of it comes down to, guess what---- terpenes! These are largely what produces the varying types of high characteristics, along with what other less common cannabinoids may be present (CBD aside, but that too of course)....
Myrcene is a big one, more of that or often the #1 in most hybrids, Indi-dominants, and old world "Indicas" as opposed to it being much lower in "Sativas" which had higher % of terp's like pinene, beta-Caryophyllene, limonene...

There is a whole world of unexplored (scientifically) territory on this alone in cannabis! All we know for sure is the synergistic/entourage effects are a Thing....

Some cultivar notes:
-most fierce/scary high's I've had were from a Vortex pheno (delivery bud, awesome gown) and a cross called Killer Orange which has ACE's infamously gnarly New Malawi Killer as the mother (I grew this, totally NMK dominant)...
Oh, and a weird-ass pheno of Barney's Farm version of Acapulco Gold, a throwback to whatever non-landrace hybrid they tweaked it with. That shit was almost unsmokeable for 2 months, it was like bad biker speed in effects! .... very heart-racey, jittery, wicked psychotropics aspects even for me- ... both the latter were NOT good smoke if you weren't in a good headspace already, thye did not take you there hence the "wicked" descriptor!
She had a very sharp metallic-citrus smell...
KO was all Malawi,-- complex mixed woods, oil
Vortex -mixed fruity-citrus funk if I recall rightly..? That pheno wasn't so wicked in the high, just very strong and soaring

Pleasant fav's, I'll get back too shortly, gotta go... But I'll make a recommendation to all to try something that's considered an olde school heirloom, or a true landrace (check out the definition if you're not sure what this is), they can offer you something unique in this world of crosses of crosses of crosses
Maybe it won't be the most per-hit potent stuff you had, but that's not the pint after all!

 

[Jpkindbud]

As they saying goes: all things are relative!
It's a moving goal post for sure Jp', so much has changed from genetics to marketing... A lot of "greasy kids stuff" thing out there, but older tokers like you and I have developed sophistication that is LOST on much of the rest of the younger toking culture...
The relentless quest for higher and higher THC levels, to the tune that this is all that matters to many,... and all the pricing is based on it in the sales market = View attachment 1716849.... I'm seeing the most absurd THC% claims now, CopyCat Genetics in particular... that fucker makes great stuff for a fact, but 38+% is a lie, sorry... testing has it's dark side to say nothing of margins of error, cheating/rigging, etc.,...
Botanically speaking, a plant making this amount of secondary metabolites is just nonsense...

The explosion of the concentrate market is very notable IMO,... 80-90+% THC, holy fuck, might as well switch to heroin S! No wonder so many can't get a decent buzz off even "top shelf"...

All this has the unfortunate effect of many folks missing the best parts of the experience, the quality and nature of a high, not just how technically chemically potent it is (hit-per-hit), that's a very linear and sorry way of seeing it. View attachment 1716851
Some may get it intellectually, but not so much in practical reality...

This why I grow so many different cultivars, even as a lightweight/low volume consumer. I want a full spectrum of "highs", from heavy gravity couch-lock to middle ground to up-beat floaty to strapped-on, white-knuckled cruise missile ride with Iron Butterfly playing in your head!
...not every high for anytime is the way to go, the "right tool for the right job" is my MO....

Potency is a broader assessment to me, not just how many hits it takes... Peoples tolerances vary so much as well, so between these things there's no way to standardize such an assessment as "fire, mids, etc.".... Only the fucking dispensaries are doing this, all based on %THC and marketing hype, along with all the silly-ass pop culture cross names and the kiddie cartoon graphics!

Simplistic views of McConsumers are part of the silliness. Colors, apparent trichome amounts, density and the like don't always equate to "fire"...all that glitters isn't gold sometimes! And pretty doesn't get you high....

IME I've had or grown stuff that didn't impress the eye, but offered gob-smacking potency/effects. Some of the ugliest bud I've had was amazing! A long while back I got hold of some OD grown Pineapple Thai that looked fugly at casual glance, but not all bud shines well even it the trichs are there. The aroma of this stuff blew me away too, to date one of the richest I've encountered, pure artificial pineapple flavoring, like uncanny! ...awesome high quality and just a couple hits off of other resin smothered bud stuff (tested in the 20's%)...

Conversely I've had bud that was very well frosted, gorgeous in looks, but offered up a surprisingly weak, short-lived and bland buzz...

One of my fav's this season is the Burmese Pure, showing to me much more potent than she looks and offers a wonderful clean happy-uppy "Sativa" high that I like better than the Haze/Thai crosses I've had in the past... aroma is to die for, tropical fruity citrus candy floral goodness!

I put quotes around Sativa and Indica because these are purely conventional terms, generalizations that aren't valid really in any sense anymore.
Botanically/taxonomically, they are plain wrong... So is the narrow leaf vs. wide leaf thing to a degree, especially in hybrids which of course are about 99% of what's out there.
Only true landrace NLD/WLD can claim some factual truth to this and the associated high characters they offer, namely body vs. head,...or "stoned" vs. "high"if you will.... Even so, studies and experienced growers know that even in a population of so-called landrace/heirlooms there can be significant leaf width variations, to say nothing of what environmental/nutritional effects influence this...
Point is, like so much canna-related, take it as a generalization, not dogma!

There are some interesting research papers on the chemistry differences between Sati's and Indi's out there. Much of it comes down to, guess what---- terpenes! These are largely what produces the varying types of high characteristics, along with what other less common cannabinoids may be present (CBD aside, but that too of course)....
Myrcene is a big one, more of that or often the #1 in most hybrids, Indi-dominants, and old world "Indicas" as opposed to it being much lower in "Sativas" which had higher % of terp's like pinene, beta-Caryophyllene, limonene...

There is a whole world of unexplored (scientifically) territory on this alone in cannabis! All we know for sure is the synergistic/entourage effects are a Thing....

Some cultivar notes:
-most fierce/scary high's I've had were from a Vortex pheno (delivery bud, awesome gown) and a cross called Killer Orange which has ACE's infamously gnarly New Malawi Killer as the mother (I grew this, totally NMK dominant)...
Oh, and a weird-ass pheno of Barney's Farm version of Acapulco Gold, a throwback to whatever non-landrace hybrid they tweaked it with. That shit was almost unsmokeable for 2 months, it was like bad biker speed in effects! .... very heart-racey, jittery, wicked psychotropics aspects even for me- ... both the latter were NOT good smoke if you weren't in a good headspace already, thye did not take you there hence the "wicked" descriptor!
She had a very sharp metallic-citrus smell...
KO was all Malawi,-- complex mixed woods, oil
Vortex -mixed fruity-citrus funk if I recall rightly..? That pheno wasn't so wicked in the high, just very strong and soaring

Pleasant fav's, I'll get back too shortly, gotta go... But I'll make a recommendation to all to try something that's considered and olde school heirloom, or a true landrace (check out the definition if you're not sure what this is), they can offer you something unique in this world of crosses of crosses of crosses
Maybe it won't be the most per-hit potent stuff you had, but that's not the pint after all!

I usually test what I grow by “hits”. From a glass pipe, if it takes more than 3 to get me feeling good or better, then it isn’t… I usually only need two of my grow to get there. 20+ years ago, I had some “Hawaiian”. Blond, purple, and orange pistils. My brother-in-law at the time had me roll one “pinner” and we didn’t make it through. He couldn’t drive his own car and we were laughing so hard it hurt (in a good way). I threw my money at the convenient store clerk for a Mountain Dew and a pack of Marlboro cigs. Told him take what you need and give me the rest! All the while trying to stifle the uncontrollable laughter coming out of me. I had to drive my Bro-in-laws be rabbit with a stick back to the house. THAT was some great weed. Would love to get my hands on some native Hawaiian sati seeds. It was either Maui wowie or pakalolo. Can’t quite remember. Best high ever to date!

 

[Entombed]

I have no idea but I love reading posts like @Waira s above. Wicked interesting.

 

[MotaZona]

Doesn’t it depend on if you’re asking a grower or typical consumer?
I can’t smoke because of health issues, so it all gets given away. I grow plants that are probably mids at best to a grower, but I’ve had OG senior aged consumers tell me my Tropicana Cookies was the best grass they’ve ever smoked.

 

[Waira]

I usually test what I grow by “hits”. From a glass pipe, if it takes more than 3 to get me feeling good or better, then it isn’t… I usually only need two of my grow to get there. 20+ years ago, I had some “Hawaiian”. Blond, purple, and orange pistils. My brother-in-law at the time had me roll one “pinner” and we didn’t make it through. He couldn’t drive his own car and we were laughing so hard it hurt (in a good way). I threw my money at the convenient store clerk for a Mountain Dew and a pack of Marlboro cigs. Told him take what you need and give me the rest! All the while trying to stifle the uncontrollable laughter coming out of me. I had to drive my Bro-in-laws be rabbit with a stick back to the house. THAT was some great weed. Would love to get my hands on some native Hawaiian sati seeds. It was either Maui wowie or pakalolo. Can’t quite remember. Best high ever to date!

HI cultivars are some of the best!
I remember way way back in early high school (early 80's), my buddy (his mom actually) got some HI buds sent to him here in CA.. Of course us rotten shitbirds knicked some of it, and to this day the aroma's still stand out in my mind - ... similar experience, totally giggle-weed!
It follows too, coz much of the genetics over there are "Sativa" types, had to be due to the climate and Latitude... Good f'ing luck growing a hashplant type Indi' in such conditions, or finishing bloom at least; the Rots would eat it in a flash....

There is magic in that volcanic soil too, and that tropical Sun...

 

[Jpkindbud]

HI cultivars are some of the best!
I remember way way back in early high school (early 80's), my buddy (his mom actually) got some HI buds sent to him here in CA.. Of course us rotten shitbirds knicked some of it, and to this day the aroma's still stand out in my mind - ... similar experience, totally giggle-weed!
It follows too, coz much of the genetics over there are "Sativa" types, had to be due to the climate and Latitude... Good f'ing luck growing a hashplant type Indi' in such conditions, or finishing bloom at least; the Rots would eat it in a flash....

There is magic in that volcanic soil too, and that tropical Sun...

I just wanna get some seeds from there… not a hybrid, mind you… but the real deal! I have found exactly one site featuring heirloom HI seeds based in Hawaii. I’ll prob give them a try sometime in the future. I know what I’m in for… long flowering, prob super stretchy, but should be worth it in the end.

 

[Jpkindbud]

I just wanna get some seeds from there… not a hybrid, mind you… but the real deal! I have found exactly one site featuring heirloom HI seeds based in Hawaii. I’ll prob give them a try sometime in the future. I know what I’m in for… long flowering, prob super stretchy, but should be worth it in the end.

Hawaiian Heirloom & Landrace Genetics

Pua Mana 1st Hawaiian Pakalōlō Seed Bank is Hawai'i 'Ohana preserving & beeding the finest Hawaiian genetics on Earth ~Organic Medical Hawaiian Cannabis Seeds~

puamanaohana.us

This is the place. All others searched are hybrids… Hawaiian mixed with US genetics. This is the only one I found that has the real heirloom HI genetics