Indoor Growing Scrog

[Nightqueen]

I've never been able to rationalize leaf tucking. I don't see how it can add to the plants growth and there are some downsides.

A leaf, when exposed to enough light, will contribute to the growth of the plant via photosynthesis. It will also transpire which helps cool the plant and take up nutrients.

A leaf, when tucked, cannot contribute to the growth of the plant because it doesn't receive much light. It will consume resources, however, become a net photosynthetic loss to the plant. The leaf will continue to transpire until the VPD within the tucked leaf drops so low that it can no longer transpire. At that point, the leaf will be a small bundle of plant material in the center of which is an area of stagnant, very highly moisture-laden air. Due to its shape, tucked leaf will tend to reduce air flow through the plant, which will reduce the ability to move moisture laden water from that area under the canopy.

I veg my plants under a Growcraft veg light and they start out being very short and very bushy. Yes, there are a huge number of leaves in there but they're open to the air so they can transpire.

Day 25
View attachment 1771055View attachment 1771056

In veg, I do very little/no defoliation because, once they hit flower, the canopy rises and the undercarriage will thin out.

View attachment 1771057

"She'll out grow of it".

View attachment 1771054

To my understanding it's a matter of finding a sweetspot between good and evil and the right timing. Those plants look fine and if it works for you, why change a running system?

 

[GasPlease]

I've never been able to rationalize leaf tucking. I don't see how it can add to the plants growth and there are some downsides.

Leaf tucking aids in light penetration and airflow without the stress of defoliation.

A leaf, when exposed to enough light, will contribute to the growth of the plant via photosynthesis. It will also transpire which helps cool the plant and take up nutrients.

If i tuck 1 leaf and expose 3 more to light thats a net positive and the leaf i tuck probably wont lose 100% of its light either. The tucked leaf also isnt in a permanent home. A lot of times the leaf will work itself free providing full benefits until tucked again.

A leaf, when tucked, cannot contribute to the growth of the plant because it doesn't receive much light.

Isnt all your internal foliage having the same negative affect that you say tucking has?



I guess you can say i disagree but youve got a healthy looking plant and it works for you.

 

[420autoflower]

Shantibaba seeds nl#5 AUTO.. dry weight 585gView attachment 1770771View attachment 1770772View attachment 1770773

Very nice @ciccio!
Fantastic job and awesome yield!
Was this your first 420 SCROG? Soil or hydro?
Thank you so much for sharing.

Many plastic training benders look good online in the ads but are so-so or worthless in practice. But these
Bendies are my longtime favorites. Bonsai training wire also at times but mostly Bendies, just as you're doing.

I use training clips once in awhile but mainly use green gardening wire and my bent coat hanger stakes. The problem with clips is that the tops eventually grow vertical and doesn’t divert the growth energy to the lower nodes as well. Better to use a clip for the main bend and a stake to keep the top pinned down.

The whole point of pH Perfect is that whatever the mixed feed pH is, it is rarely ever out of whack. It's good over a wide range (a radical concept for many growers having always targeted optimal feed pH, even thinking in terms of specific nutes having their own pH ranges).

Way back when I bothered to measure, after mixing it would always be at a coco-friendly pH. Others report the same. By now what you have on hand might be old(?). I've always used freshly purchased liquid base nutes.

It was always off before anything was ever mixed in, and I tested with R/O and tap water. The stuff is also way over priced as opposed to Drip Hydro and more bottles needed. Basically 4 times as much as Drip Hydro and Drip is easier to use. With Advanced Nutritions you need 4 different bottles to bring a plant to harvest and only 2 with Drip, Drips A&B (2 bottles) are mixed exactly the same throughout the grow and with Advanced Nutrition you need their A&B for veg and their A&B for Bloom (4 bottles). I just purchased 2 fresh bottles of Advanced Nutritions PH Perfect A&B and I’ll post test results in a couple weeks.

I dont think this AI nonsense is contributing to the thread or this forum in general.. Wtf

Day 23. I'm experimenting with this one, to see how simple a process
I can make this, overcoming my fear of super-cropping, and using as few materials as possible ...

1. Using only GH FloraNova Grow, and later will use Bloom.
2. RO water, my tap water is a mess.
3. Seed soaked in 1% hydrogen peroxide solution for 3 hours, then inserted directly into rockwool
starter block, which was already inserted in its 4" rockwool cube. Temp ~80 F.
4. Slowly ramp up nutes, 100 ppm a day from day one, until reaching 650 ppm on day 7.
5. Humidity around 75% seedling stage.
6. Typical PPFD and appropriate DLI for a 20-4 light schedule.
7. Duct-taped needle nose pliers and super-cropped,
earlier than 420 recommends, but I was itching to try it. I get it now:
gently massage the woody stems with the pliers until they are compliant.
As 420 has explained ... it's easier than it looks.


View attachment 1770965

Good job @Mongoose!
I knew you could do it! Has she hit preflower yet?
It’s good to have a cheap $6 spool of green gardening wire on hand so you’re able to make your own areas to tuck your tips if they don’t quite reach the net.
Also good to keep the tops defoliated to expose what’s underneath.

What is recommended when a plant grows short and stocky? I've already removed a few leaves because everything is so crowded. I want to take a couple more but wanted to get some advice. Is it best to let her grow and deal with it herself until first schwazzing?

I am tucking the best I can but even when I tuck the leaves are in the way of something.

View attachment 1771041

You can remove certain leaves but try to keep tucking until you have a developed root system. You can start selective defoliation when you see roots coming out the bottom of your 6x6” block.

I've never been able to rationalize leaf tucking. I don't see how it can add to the plants growth and there are some downsides.

A leaf, when exposed to enough light, will contribute to the growth of the plant via photosynthesis. It will also transpire which helps cool the plant and take up nutrients.

A leaf, when tucked, cannot contribute to the growth of the plant because it doesn't receive much light. It will consume resources, however, become a net photosynthetic loss to the plant. The leaf will continue to transpire until the VPD within the tucked leaf drops so low that it can no longer transpire. At that point, the leaf will be a small bundle of plant material in the center of which is an area of stagnant, very highly moisture-laden air. Due to its shape, tucked leaf will tend to reduce air flow through the plant, which will reduce the ability to move moisture laden water from that area under the canopy.

I veg my plants under a Growcraft veg light and they start out being very short and very bushy. Yes, there are a huge number of leaves in there but they're open to the air so they can transpire.

Day 25
View attachment 1771055View attachment 1771056

In veg, I do very little/no defoliation because, once they hit flower, the canopy rises and the undercarriage will thin out.

View attachment 1771057

"She'll out grow of it".

View attachment 1771054

The main reason we are tucking leaves is to avoid stress at the early stage of life and to expose the nodes. The entire plant is covered with green plant matter so tucking a few leaves isn’t going to slow anything down. With the proper leaf tucking, pruning and the 420autoflower SCROG method even the smallest nodes that are usually plucked off (lollipopped) grow into some of the biggest colas on the plant, resulting in a higher yield. Absolutely no waste with the 420 method!

These nodes have the potential to be the biggest colas on the plant if they are treated right.

IMHO… this is wasted growth that could possibly double your yield.

 

[GasPlease]

You can remove certain leaves but try to keep tucking until you have a developed root system. You can start selective defoliation when you see roots coming out the bottom of your 6x6” block.

Okay. I added the 3" of rockwool on day 14 because they both had roots out the bottom of the 6x6. Knowing I can take a leaf or two helps.

 

[ciccio]

@420autoflower To be honest, it wasn't a 420 SCROG setup... it was topped and LST (bending)... the idea was actually to use the 420 technique... it turned out differently than planned... it was grown in soil.

 

[Delps8]

Leaf tucking aids in light penetration and airflow without the stress of defoliation.

In terms of how it impacts the plant, I wouldn't describe modest amount of defoliation as being "stressful".

If i tuck 1 leaf and expose 3 more to light thats a net positive and the leaf i tuck probably wont lose 100% of its light either. The tucked leaf also isnt in a permanent home. A lot of times the leaf will work itself free providing full benefits until tucked again.

So you "reset" it at some point? Makes sense.

Isnt all your internal foliage having the same negative affect that you say tucking has?

Not quite. There's a hell of a lot of foliage in there but, per my photos, the whole plant sort of rises so, in the long term, it's not an issue. It is a PITA to work in, granted.

The issue that would concern me it the leaves being rolled/curled up and not able to move moisture from the surface. Obviously, it's not a major issue but it's something I'd prefer to avoid.

I guess you can say i disagree but youve got a healthy looking plant and it works for you.

The veg light is great for compact, bushy plants but it's hard to work with. And I do end up having to defoliate a fair amount. A veg light in veg and a flower light in flower is a good recipe. I've been using supplemental lights for better spectrum and it's been interesting. My next grow with will be my first auto in a few years.

 

[Delps8]

Very nice @ciccio!
Fantastic job and awesome yield!
Was this your first 420 SCROG? Soil or hydro?
Thank you so much for sharing.

I use training clips once in awhile but mainly use green gardening wire and my bent coat hanger stakes. The problem with clips is that the tops eventually grow vertical and doesn’t divert the growth energy to the lower nodes as well. Better to use a clip for the main bend and a stake to keep the top pinned down.


It was always off before anything was ever mixed in, and I tested with R/O and tap water. The stuff is also way over priced as opposed to Drip Hydro and more bottles needed. Basically 4 times as much as Drip Hydro and Drip is easier to use. With Advanced Nutritions you need 4 different bottles to bring a plant to harvest and only 2 with Drip, Drips A&B (2 bottles) are mixed exactly the same throughout the grow and with Advanced Nutrition you need their A&B for veg and their A&B for Bloom (4 bottles). I just purchased 2 fresh bottles of Advanced Nutritions PH Perfect A&B and I’ll post test results in a couple weeks.


View attachment 1771115View attachment 1771116View attachment 1771117





Good job @Mongoose!
I knew you could do it! Has she hit preflower yet?
It’s good to have a cheap $6 spool of green gardening wire on hand so you’re able to make your own areas to tuck your tips if they don’t quite reach the net.
Also good to keep the tops defoliated to expose what’s underneath.

View attachment 1771118View attachment 1771119View attachment 1771120View attachment 1771122


You can remove certain leaves but try to keep tucking until you have a developed root system. You can start selective defoliation when you see roots coming out the bottom of your 6x6” block.


The main reason we are tucking leaves is to avoid stress at the early stage of life and to expose the nodes. The entire plant is covered with green plant matter so tucking a few leaves isn’t going to slow anything down. With the proper leaf tucking, pruning and the 420autoflower SCROG method even the smallest nodes that are usually plucked off (lollipopped) grow into some of the biggest colas on the plant, resulting in a higher yield. Absolutely no waste with the 420 method!

These nodes have the potential to be the biggest colas on the plant if they are treated right.
View attachment 1771126


IMHO… this is wasted growth that could possibly double your yield.
View attachment 1771127

I do appreciate the time you took to look closely and offer feedback. On the yield comment, I think there may be a misunderstanding. Doubling yield can’t come from removing structural tissue under the canopy. Yield comes from the amount of light the plant absorbs and the biomass that the plant builds during veg and stretch. Once the canopy is set, the yield potential is basically baked in. Those lower stems just support the structure, they're not limiting flower production that's taking place up top.

The photo below helps reveal the morphology of the plant. The low-angle shot makes it look scraggly but at canopy level it’s not. The canopy is about 36" across and 24" front to back with about 20 dominant bud sites. The PPFD has averaged close to 1k since day 26, with a standard deviation of around 50 µmol so the canopy on the plant has received a very high percentage of the amount of PAR that a cannabis plant can process in ambient CO2. Removing canopy leaves to try to get light into the lower zone would actually reduce yield, because PPFD attenuates so quickly below the surface layer.

In terms of increasing yield, though it's too late to have much of an impact on this grow, I bought myself an early Christmas present in the form of IR supplemental lights. Since I'm at 1kµmol, PSII is maxed but the IR will give me a boost of a little over 100µmol in PSI. It won't transform the grow and my PAR meter won't even be able to read it but running IR for the next few weeks will give me a bit of a boost and will help me dial in things for future grows.

 

[GasPlease]

Is it just me? Im baffled that someone would come into a thread like this and tell the op they dont understand how to grow weed. Like there is years of monster grows here. Plants with I dont even know the record but 100-150 main colas and like 2lbs from 1 auto. "20 dominant bud sites" isnt even a quarter of what he averages. I have 16 mains in the diameter of a 5 gallon pot.

 

[Kausk]

On the yield comment, I think there may be a misunderstanding. Doubling yield can’t come from removing structural tissue under the canopy. Yield comes from the amount of light the plant absorbs and the biomass that the plant builds during veg and stretch. Once the canopy is set, the yield potential is basically baked in. Those lower stems just support the structure, they're not limiting flower production that's taking place up top.

Im not sure but I think you understood 420autoflowers comment wrong. He was pointing out that you decreased your possible yield by lollipopping all the lower biomass. These lower branches would also develop buds if one maintains light penetration, theyre not just "structural".

 

[420autoflower]

Is it just me? Im baffled that someone would come into a thread like this and tell the op they dont understand how to grow weed. Like there is years of monster grows here. Plants with I dont even know the record but 100-150 main colas and like 2lbs from 1 auto. "20 dominant bud sites" isnt even a quarter of what he averages. I have 16 mains in the diameter of a 5 gallon pot.

View attachment 1771175

Lol! Thank you brother. It’s not just you… but it’s all good.
Someone needs to read through the thread to see the benefits of leaf tucking and pruning.
The proof is in the pudding.

Im not sure but I think you understood 420autoflowers comment wrong. He was pointing out that you decreased your possible yield by lollipopping all the lower biomass. These lower branches would also develop buds if one maintains light penetration, theyre not just "structural".

Yes! Exactly.
Thanks @Kausk!