Help! Phosphorus Deficiency & Nitrogen Toxicity?

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Problem: Brown blotches on lower leaves of plant (Blue Mystic) (probably noticed this about a week ago). To me, it looks like a case of phosphorus deficiency – but I’m not sure. Also, not sure of the cause: lack of phosphorus or lockout.

I haven’t had much for nutes (first light dosage yesterday after 4 weeks since planting). However, my runoff has a consistently high EC (2,600-3,000 uS/cm, 2.6-3.0 mS/cm). Makes me wonder if it’s lockout. Runoff pH has been fairly stable: around 6.4-6.9.

Not sure where to go from here. I could try bumping up the bloom nutes to get more phosphorus, but if the issue is lockout then I’ll be making things worse. If it is lockout, should I do a huge watering (pH’d of course) to try and wash salts out?

I’m a bit worried about the high EC of the runoff water. However, I’ve read that the runoff EC for soil can be quite high so maybe I’m overthinking it.

Another issue is that one plant (Northern Light) looks like it has clawed leaves and stunted. Nitrogen toxicity?

Medium/grow method: Soil. Blend of FFOF, Happy Frog, additional Perlite, and Black Gold Seedling Mix (1 Part FFOF, 1 Part Happy Frog, 1 Part Perlite blended). In the center of the pot, a couple handfuls of seedling soil mix was used to prevent hot FF soil from burning seedlings initially.


Each plant is potted in a 3 gallon cloth grow bag and is located in a home-made tent (reflective insulation, PVC pipe structure, 4’x4’).

Feed and supplements used: Up until yesterday, just pH’d water (between 6.2-6.6). Total EC after pH adjustment was between 160-180 uS/cm (0.16-0.18 mS/cm). Yesterday, I added some nutrients (Humboldt Grow @ 0.17 mL/L, Micro @ 0.17 mL/L, Bloom @ 0.08 mL/L). Total EC of feed water was around 340 uS/cm (0.34 mS/cm).


I’ve been watering once every six days or so; I wait for the top of the soil to be dry. Most waterings are around 2-3L per plant with 10-20% runoff. About a week and a half ago, I did a larger watering (~4L per plant with 30-40% runoff) to try and see if I could reduce the runoff EC. It was still high at approx. 2.6 mS/cm.

Water source: Tap water with a relatively low EC (160-180 uS/cm). Usually try to let water sit for a few hours to dechlorinate and equilibrate with ambient temps.

Strain/age: The two plants with brown blotches are Blue Mystic AF. The stunted plant with the claws is Northern Light AF. They are 4 weeks old since the seeds were planted.

Light used: Blurple LEDs. One large unit (268W actual draw) and two smaller lights (23W actual draw each). Total of 314W draw for 8 plants. I’ve been running 20/4. Been around 18” from top of plants.

Climate: Been having some hot and cold weather which has been influencing my indoor temps. This past week it’s been a bit cool. 63F, 60% RH without lights, 73F, 50% RH with lights. A week ago, temps were much warmer, up to 91F. Have two clip on fans (one intake, one exhaust).
 

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The simplest explanation is that you are overfeeding if the runoff is that high.
Overfeeding can cause severe problems that cause or mimic lockouts.
I use hydro, and that sort of problem is common if ppm is too high.
Actual deficiencies are uncommon, but nute lockout from overfeeding is common.
These weeds can grow with very little fertilizer.
 
Thank you Simplicio! That makes sense - especially with the high runoff. Maybe next time I'll go with coco for better control over nutes or maybe a soil without much fertilizer. Seems like Fox Farms is too hot.

Next watering I'll try a big flush. Thinking 1x pot volume (11L) per plant?
 
You shouldn't have any def this early and it could be a little nute solution got on the leaves.Hold off nutes for awhile and if it continues let us no..
 
Thanks for the advice! So in the past few days the symptoms have gotten worse. More brown spots on the leaves. Also, I've noticed red stems on the leaves with the brown spots. Seems to me to be consistent with a phosphorus issue.

Today the soil was dry enough that I felt comfortable doing a flush. Six out of my eight plants received 20 L of pH'd water (6.30-6.40, 170-210 uS/cm) with no nutes. The runoff from these plants had a pH ranging from 6.30-6.65 and EC ranging from 570-848 uS/cm. The remaining two plants looked healthier so I only gave them a 15 L flush. The EC of the runoff water ranged from 970-1,450 uS/cm.

Hoping that this flush helps. If the symptoms continue, do you think I should try adding some bloom nutes (high in Phos) at the next watering in probably 4-6 days?

Thanks!
 
:toke: -- I don't know what's up with that high ppm run-off, but it's not all necessarily nute salts,... OF is pretty rich, but it's also a very suspect soil these days,..(noted, your blending of it, so this isn't too hot)... hands down the [HASHTAG]#1[/HASHTAG] problem soil I see here! Straight OF for seedling is too hot usually, but that's not the case here,... In the past I've tested bags with an Accurate 8 soil pH probe, and they were in the low 5's :nono:.... their quality is iffy at best, so in the future, switch to another brand,...
OK, confirm this, decimal amounts of nutes?--
Humboldt Grow @ 0.17 mL/L, Micro @ 0.17 mL/L, Bloom @ 0.08 mL/L). Total EC of feed water was around 340 uS/cm (0.34 mS/cm)
--that's practically nothing, so "overfeeding" is just plain wrong, sorry.... @Simplicio .. I appreciate you trying to help, but in here, your advise needs to be better than this, all due respect,...

... Ping, I see no mention of pH on anything, and that's critical info to have, also to monitor regularly! In-pot pH is key,... your inputs do not reflect what the in-pot pH is either, BTW,....
Symptoms look like P defc. to me, mild, and not really progressing now? This could be a pH related issue (lockout), or simple lack-of (more likely, given lack of other symptoms),... Also, the badly overlooked balance of T and RH% factors in big time,... That temporary spike in T may have kicked this off,... best explanation is in the Reference section under Vapor Pressure Deficit,.. when your T and RH% are way off the mark, it screws with transpiration which screws with the uptake and transport of nutrients, simply put,...:smoking:
I recommend getting a soil pH probe (meters are for liquids only),.. the Accurate 8 is a good unit for this, used properly it can give you solid readings on in-pot pH- :thumbsup:
Since you flushed already, did you add any nutes at all to the last pour through? You don't want to start inducing other defc's as well,.. that soil is not complete for nutrient profile by any means, so get on the nutes ASAP,....
 
Thank you Waira. Yes, I won't be using FFOF again after this!

Yes, the amount of nutes has been very light - just one feeding at very low dosage. Regarding pH, I record the feed pH and runoff pH whenever I water; it's been pretty steady. Been feeding at 6.2-6.3 and runoff is around 6.3 to 6.6. So soil pH is around 6.4-6.8.

I have not added any nutes. I just flushed thinking it was a build up of salts in the soil based on the high runoff. Should I add nutes now or wait until the next watering when the soil is dry? Don't want to drown the roots but don't want to let the phosphorus issue linger too long either.

EDIT: Decided to feed the plants. Gave them 1/2 strength flower nutes (high in phos.). 0.5 mL/L Grow, 1 mL/L Micro, 1.75 mL/L Bloom (Humboldt). Fed them approximately 2 L of water with nutes. pH in = 6.42, EC in = 1,156 uS/cm. pH out = 6.38, EC out = 1,652 uS/cm.

Now, I'm just going to leave them alone and see how they do!
 
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Hello,

I know this thread is old but just wanted to give everyone a status update. After playing around with the nutrients a bit, the plants looked a bit better but some of the leaves continued to stay yellow/brown but I just pressed onwards.

At the end, I had a stunning harvest! I was hoping to get 4-8 oz with the 314 W (0.36 to 0.72 g/W). I got a whopping 12.34 oz dried and trimmed!! Pushing 1.11 g/W! I was shocked. Also got 1.6 g of bubble hash from the trimmings. I would have never guessed I that I could get such a monster yield off of cheap chinese blurple LEDs and my complete inexperience.

Thanks everyone for your help! Some pics attached!

Thanks,
PPP
 

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