Indoor LST Hub

[BigBuddha]

Sup, TC. Glad you reminded me about this post on my wall!! I'd forgotten all about it!

I can't answer your question yet, but I'm about to read the article attached to this post. This basically comes down to plant tropisms, which is pretty much the process of a plant recognising and responding to different stimuli in its environment eg. phototropism = growing toward light; gravitropism = growing against gravity (mostly). As far as I can tell, the mechanism behind the success of lst is related to the gravitropic effect, but like I said I haven't read this article yet. I will start with chapter 3 as it's titled: Auxin Transport and the Integration of Gravitropic Growth

I hope that helps and good question btw. I'm not sure if the attachment will work so let me know if it doesn't.



TC

Well.. thanks for pointing me in that direction as I've just read the wiki page and that appears to have a lot to do with LST if for no other reason than the direction of light will affect it's directional growth. Hmm.. this is giving me all sorts of ideas about using side-lighting to direct tip growth after training. :head:

A tropism (from Greek τροπή, trope, "a turning") is a biological phenomenon, indicating growth or turning movement of a biological organism, usually a plant, in response to an environmental stimulus. In tropisms, this response is dependent on the direction of the stimulus (as opposed to nastic movements which are non-directional responses). Viruses and other pathogens also affect what is called "host tropism" or "cell tropism" in which case tropism refers to the way in which different viruses/pathogens have evolved to preferentially target specific host species, or specific cell types within those species. Tropisms are usually named for the stimulus involved (for example, a phototropism is a reaction to light) and may be either positive (towards the stimulus) or negative (away from the stimulus).
Tropisms are typically associated with plants (although not necessarily restricted to them).[1] Where an organism is capable of directed physical movement (motility), movement or activity in response to a specific stimulus is more likely to be regarded by behaviorists as a taxis (directional response) or a kinesis (non-directional response).
In English, the word tropism is used in sometimes derisive way to indicate an action done without cognitive thought: However, "tropism" in this sense has a proper, although non-scientific, meaning as an innate tendency, natural inclination, or propensity to act in a certain manner.

Source


And a bit on Gravitropism:

Gravitropism is a turning or growth movement by a plant or fungus in response to gravity. Charles Darwin was one of the first to scientifically document that roots show positive gravitropism and stems show negative gravitropism. That is, roots grow in the direction of gravitational pull (i.e., downward) and stems grow in the opposite direction (i.e., upwards). This behavior can be easily demonstrated with a potted plant. When laid onto its side, the growing parts of the stem begin to display negative gravitropism, growing (biologists say, turning; see tropism) upwards. Herbaceous (non-woody) stems are capable of a small degree of actual bending, but most of the redirected movement occurs as a consequence of root or stem growth in a new direction.

Source


Far out man..


My entire relationship to plants has changed since I started growing weed, and it never ceases to amaze me how they work.

In theory, then, we can control direction with light, gravity and auxins. So correct me if I'm wrong, but by rights we should be able to also control height by not using top-lighting and going solely for side-lights, no?

I feel a test grow coming up soon.

 

[BigBuddha]

What a coincidence? i posted a question today asking what is LST? and then found this (serendipity) I have 3 x 60 day wonder around 4-6 inches and looking very healthy, under a 250 hps. I am going to expirement on one with LST. I am going to do it on the plant that i am doing another experiment on.

You won't be disappointed fella.

Has anybody heard of double dig growing? It is used for vegetables. You dig and turn over the soil twice as deep as usual, IE twice the depth of the spade. After that you NEVER step on the plot, it has to stay loose. The idea is that you can grow crops closer together as they find it easier to to root down. Its not a crackpot theory i grew veg with this method for years. In trials they have found you can get twice the amount of produce in the same space. SO i have one container bigger than the other 2 and i just put the soil in (biobizz all mix) and didn't tamp it down or even touch it. They have all been under the light for 2 weeks and it is a third bigger than the other two! This is not proof that it is working but its worth a try.

Fascinating. You know who'd be interested in this? The Aquafarm growers that have two + plants per farm. Or me when I get a proper garden!!

How's she doing now? Still boosting?

Cheers LSD here i come (is that a typo or a freudian slip?)

Who cares.. we accept both equally in the Hub

Thanks for the welcome Big Buddha. To help out from what I have learned, LST- Low Stress Training. There are to schools of thought on training plants, Bending (aka Super Cropping) and LST. Bending is more aggresive and stressful because you actually break down cell wall structure in the stem at the point of the bend. There are many YouTube vids on this and some good ones too I might add. LST takes advantage of the same process with out compromise to the plant thus less stress. This can be done at an early stage in plant life to allow for the lower nodes to grow out and up creating a top. As we all know more tops mean more bud. Haven't had the oppertunity to try this on an autoflower yet, but on photo sensitive plants with longer growing time you can essentually bend lower branches to get more tops on them. Knowing how and what makes it work is all good, the next question is: How far should you bend the main stalk when starting LST? And with autoflowers how soon?

Happy Growing!!

Cheers, TX. I've been doing some research on the wall-structure after bending and found, again, learned some really useful stuff. Apparently stems are just tubes.. hollow on the inside for the most part so TOO agressive bending (too quickly) crushes this central hollow column and that can hamper water movement (thus nutes). SO that logically means that going too heav on the training too fast can actually contribute to seeing deficiencies in certain parts of the plant if we're not careful!!! Well worth knowing.

Likewise.. inside the stem structure the cells act in the same sort of way so if they get compressed together too hard it stops them working properly, just on a smaller scale.

HOWEVER.. and this is where it gets tricky.. cos if we know that this is a localised event, ie if we bend one stem on the right of the plant and it crushes the walls of the stem then in theory the rest of the plant should see this as a shock and compensate elsewhere with more auxins. So I'm wondering if knowing this beforehand means that we can create intentional damage to one part of a pant to make the rest of it compensate and get stronger?

Hmmm

 

[BigBuddha]

Hi all! This is a fantastic source of information and knowledge about LST. Thanks a lot BigBuddha for you efforts and explanations, they are most welcome!

Hey man thanks for your kind feedback. I'm glad you're in the Hub contributing fella.

I see that you use the same wire/tape method for the restraints as I do (much easier eh). I used to use string but I stopped recently because it tends to cut through the stems like a hot knife through butter. You'd think it'd be ok, but I not use gardening wire which is basically metal coated in pvc. You'd think that would cut through but, like your nylon wire, it doesn't cut through because the surface is totally smooth so there's next to no resistance when it contacts the plant surface. I'm guessing here, but does that sound feasible to you?

I like your early start on the training, too, and I see you also start the plant in a corner of a pot. I've never seen that before.. is that a standard for you or your first attempt? I always go centre and then train outwards but I think I can see a lot of benefit in starting in a corner and moving across the pot especially with the stems being able to be pulled back. Oh yeah.. or staring in a corner makes it a lot easier to start a spiral off because you don't have to go centre > side > then circle..

Nice work dude. Growing kudos earned there.

 

[BigBuddha]

Just in the name of all things LST I've added a snap of an Umbrella plant that I've been training for the last few months.

The reason I'm training her is to beef-up her main stem as it's a bit weak at the moment. She's only about 2 months into her airpot so that'll help, but I'm aiming to get her to grow in all directions and start pruning and training to make a totally unusual visible spectacle in the room.

I've added blue lines to make it easier to see where her stalks are bending cos the fan leaves make it hard to see:

 

[sielm]

Awesome as always, thanks mate!

I did my first attempt with that Pandora, and decided to plant her in a corner because it sounded more natural to bend along the edges. In the end I just bent the stem towards where I had space I am not totally sure about the usefulness of planting into corners, but I like the idea and have applied it to my current grow, where I use LST to train smaller plants (3 liter pots). I'm not sure if planting into a corner could cause a plant to grow smaller because of root ball development, but I like the results so far.

Keep the info coming! Really interesting to read and learn. Thank you again!

 

[TheCannabist]

Thanks for that BB and these are just the questions I've has floating around in my head for months, but I haven't managed to find any scientific papers documenting the tropic influences on auxin redirection as a result of lst... which I was hoping you had! lol Please don't think me ungrateful!

I think a test grow is most definitely in order... in fact full fledged scientific research is in order but no one wants to fund this shit lol. What I would like to see is a test with at least 3 different methods:

1) plant grown and lst'd with only side lighting (testing influence of phototropism)
2) plant grown and lst'd but inverted, so the plant is grown upside down with the light beneath it (testing influence of gravitropism). this plant would have to have an established root base prior to being inverted otherwise gravitropic effects on root development could skew results
3) plant grown only with side lighting but not lst'd
4) plant grown inverted but not lst'd
5) plant grown inverted only with side lighting and lst'd! whhhaaaaa craazaay!

I don't think anyone will ever be bothered with this hahaha.

 

[The Squid]

Photosynthesis occurs best when the light comes from above the plant, although side lights can help, using just them would prove not so great IMO. I have also read somewhere on here that Canna will not grow inverted like tomatoes do, hence why we haven't seen anyone trying it out,but hey! Ya never know I guess, just what I have heard. Peace

 

[Hugo]

Hey BB and all!

Great quality thread you have here.

I want to share my LST with y'all:



The pics are cronological of her 2 months. I started noticing explosive growth 2 weeks ago. My aim is to go full circle with the apical stem.

I also have a big doubt I'll take the chance to ask:

When the petioles get taller than the apical stem, will the main growth be slowed down, or even stoped, because the auxins go to the new tallest growth (the petioles)? I'm tying the petioles down aswell so I keep the main stem taller than the overall growth but it's starting to get harder and harder! Specially because I'm now doing a circle counter-clockwise with the petioles stems. It's getting crowded!

Thanks for the attention.

 

[TheCannabist]

In my very limited experience it seems to depend on strain or pheno. With the mohan ram auto I have currently, the apical stem/buds was overtaken drastically by a slightly raised neighbouring stem and that one really looks like the main stem but it's a side branch. but in the case of the Santa which I am also growing now, even though the apical stem was tied lower (mostly) it still persisted to grow faster and bigger than anything else. It doesn't really matter to me. I don't think it really effects yield in the end, but maybe it does.



TC

 

[Hugo]

It's a good point. It seems to me the main stem might be a more stable source for new growth as it's fatter and stronger than any other stem.

Thank you for that input. So, in your experience it depends on the strain. I know mohan ram is Indica Dom (I just popped one out) I don't know what class is Santa...