Opinions on Cannabis Cups

[BII]

These all sound like fantastic discussion points. I recently asked every breeder currently on-site (and a few off-site) to do an introductory Q&A style interview for the forum; perhaps some of these topics would be good follow-up interview questions for them. It would be interesting to fire off a sample set of questions to each one and see how each responds!

I think it's long overdue to learn what commercial breeders/seed companies are doing in terms of real R&D. What are they doing or planning beyond using decades (or centuries?) old random luck-based manual pollination, crossing and growing-out of plants (vs. precise gene sequence and protein expression control and in vitro/cell culture technologies).

What is the degree to which breeders/seed companies have or are adopting now standard routine lab-based biotech industry technologies?
a) gene and protein sequencing;
b) bioinformatics and related AI/modeling; high throughput screening; metabolic pathway engineering, proteomics;
c) recombinant/genetic engineering/GMO technology [For ex., Agrobacterium-mediated and some viral vector-based plant-specific genetic engineering methods are now decades old and off-patent];
d) CRISPR, RNAi/antisense and other non-genetic modification methods of precise gene/protein expression control/editing;
e) in vitro/cell culture/fermentation methods (to internally develop new strains and for commercial- and home-scale cannabinoid manufacturing)
f) What about synthetic biology, enzymatic-based synthesis of cannabinoids?

Why aren't we being offered strains/seeds developed using modern, in some cases now even decades old, technologies? Is the lack of strain/seed patents simply making it not worthwhile to do R&D, or what's the problem? And if the current breeders/seed companies are not doing these things, who is?

 

[SOOTDAWG]

Woof! (Wakes from slumber)

 

[Antonio_DutchPassion]

That is a curious idea. Even more curious why we don't see the Herbies Cup, or Seedsman Cup, etc?

Yeah indeed, there are some that are trying/wanting to do that, one of them for example is Plantasur in Europe, one of (if not the) the biggest distributors worldwide (International cannabis awards).

They came up with the cup in 2024 with (in my opinion) an insane absurdly high amount to compete (Around 230gram per sample) and prices up 1000euro per sample... yeah well, it doesn't get much crazier than this..

Truth be told, I feel that the canna culture is slowly dying…. And most in the industry are focused on capitalism, and separating themselves from old school stoner culture.

Not sure if it's dying buddy, on the contrary, it is bigger than ever! But I get your point, the old-school/root culture is dying. Yeah we are getting old and the industry is getting very commercial... unfortunately. But that's the way it goes, if you've been here from the start I think the good years have definitely been behind you/us.

Although this is happening, there are still very passionate & old-school minded people/growers/breeders to be found. You just have to look a little harder, and don't believe everything you hear nor see. One of my biggest points of critique is the bullshit everyone spits out nowadays just to get aboard on the hype-train or trying to be the new hype without backing anything up.

Anyone can say or claim just about anything...

View attachment 1760565

They just announced this. The last one was held on May 25th.

But their breeder voting already started today:

Voting

American Autoflower Cup

americanautoflowercup.com

Tja..... I already had some doubts about this but it ain't getting better

I think it's long overdue to learn what commercial breeders/seed companies are doing in terms of real R&D. What are they doing or planning beyond using decades (or centuries?) old random luck-based manual pollination, crossing and growing-out of plants (vs. precise gene sequence and protein expression control and in vitro/cell culture technologies).

What is the degree to which breeders/seed companies have or are adopting now standard routine lab-based biotech industry technologies?
a) gene and protein sequencing;
b) bioinformatics and related AI/modeling; high throughput screening; metabolic pathway engineering, proteomics;
c) recombinant/genetic engineering/GMO technology [For ex., Agrobacterium-mediated and some viral vector-based plant-specific genetic engineering methods are now decades old and off-patent];
d) CRISPR, RNAi/antisense and other non-genetic modification methods of precise gene/protein expression control/editing;
e) in vitro/cell culture/fermentation methods (to internally develop new strains and for commercial- and home-scale cannabinoid manufacturing)
f) What about synthetic biology, enzymatic-based synthesis of cannabinoids?

Why aren't we being offered strains/seeds developed using modern, in some cases now even decades old, technologies? Is the lack of strain/seed patents simply making it not worthwhile to do R&D, or what's the problem? And if the current breeders/seed companies are not doing these things, who is?

Well said mate.. all are fair points

I believe one of the reasons you don't hear about this is that many companies don't want to put that out in the open. Looking at your points, I can safely say about 3 of them are actual projects we are working on together with other companies (sorry to not make you any wiser atm). And with one of them I personally know this is being done and invested in for already 3 years or so. But as with many new technologies/research they want to keep in on the down low and not make the competition any wiser.

You know the cannabis space has been largely illegal across the world and therefore this type of research and investing has never been worth doing.. because it could all be gone in a second... nowadays the business is more established and I can bet many of the things you mention above will be implemented and developed in the next 5-10 yrs.

We are currently all looking for that holy-grail and it's a matter of time we get there, I think.

 

[WildBill]

I'm gonna have to attend one of these Cannabis Cups, I kind of doubt if I would enter one.
I'd really like to attend one, just to experience different cannabis strains. I might be able to get some ideas of what I would want to grow. New experiences and information would be my reasons for attendance.

Now, there's the 'other' side of a Cannabis Cup, a larger driving factor for some, not very important in my own personal thinking.
And I think we all know that is Bragging Rights!

I kind of think that's why I would probably never seriously enter a Cannabis Cup. I just really don't feel the need to brag or to get approval from peers. The approval that I consider valuable comes from the people that use my medicine. As long as it works for them, I'm good.

I do find it a bit amusing that I wouldn't want to be competitive in a Cannabis Cup. My semi midlife crisis interest in drag racing, would be considered quite in the competitive genre. Who was at the top of the 1/4 mile list was always a major concern. When being at the VERY TOP of the list wasn't possible, the sub-categories were 'invented'.
Quickest/Fastest automatic
Quickest/Fastest stick
Quickest/Fastest Bone Stock
Quickest/Fastest Stock Long block Naturally aspirated..................I STILL hold that record after 20yrs ago this fall.

The correlation over to drag racing has multiple parts of extreme similarities in actions and reasoning. Both the racer and the grower get self satisfaction from being at the top. Both the racer and the grower have to put a lot of work into the results.
Aftermarket automotive parts suppliers and cannabis breeders, share in the glory when one of their users wins, for all the same reasons and results.

 

[BII]

....I'd really like to attend one, just to experience different cannabis strains. I might be able to get some ideas of what I would want to grow.....

As this suggests, do the festival-type 'cups' include competitors and exhibitors giving out free samples? Do festivals have areas set up for attendees to consume, trade/swap or even give away samples (no money exchanges allowed)?

The 230 grams sample required to enter a cup, as mentioned by @Antonio_DutchPassion, seems fair to me, presuming they eventually grind-up this large sample and test from that. The larger the sample provided, I presume the more "fair" any testing will be, particularly lab testing. Otherwise, grower's will surely cherry-pick a few very best buds for testing (as dispensary growers presumably do). Also, larger samples allow appearance to be judged better. [Where is this 230 gram entry sample done? What even 'legal' US states or countries actually allow possession, much less transfer, of >1/2 lb.? How are samples delivered - in person, sent by mail/package delivery service? It seems some significant law-breaking, state and federal, is involved in hosting a 'cup?']

If a cup organizer or sponsors want only established seed companies to be the only or dominant entrants, high costs can effectively screen out, eliminate the small timers. I can fully understand major seed companies, presumably often cup sponsors, not wanting to compete along with individual growers, and vice versa. Also, as an end-consumer, I'm really only interested in what I can buy from seed selling companies. I have little or no interest in strains/seeds developed by individuals or very small companies where the seeds are not readily available from established seed selling sources.

 

[Son of Hobbes]

The 230 grams sample required to enter a cup, as mentioned by @Antonio_DutchPassion, seems fair to me, presuming they eventually grind-up this large sample and test from that.

That's over 8 ounces! You are very, very generous. lol

The average weight in grams for testing cannabinoids in flower is VERY low. A very rough ballpark is around 3 grams (and some labs require less, I have seen up to 1.5 grams for a cannabinoid test.) Full panel pathogen testing can be done with a couple of grams.

Commercial grows send larger samples to labs because they are testing for BATCHES, but even then the numbers are extremely low. A 4 gram sample weight can dictate the numbers for <10 pounds in Colorado. That should instantly tell you why "high THC" and "high terpene" testing is important marketing, because those are the numbers that dictate what shelf your flower sits on (and what price it fetches wholesale and what price it fetches retail.)

Here is Nordic Analytical in Pueblo, Colorado, this is the lab that most farms in that area do their testing with. You could do full panel testing, cannabinoids, and terpenes with about 10 grams.

That leaves a lot of flower on the table for... who? Exactly? Someone is enjoying the shit out of your smoke.

Otherwise, grower's will surely cherry-pick a few very best buds for testing (as dispensary growers presumably do).

Not even a presumption, happens all day every day. There are regulatory guidelines for how to choose samples, but there is no real oversight into how you actually do it. And labs don't give a shit, they will take your money all day whether you cherry picked or doctored a sample.

[Where is this 230 gram entry sample done? What even 'legal' US states or countries actually allow possession, much less transfer, of >1/2 lb.? How are samples delivered - in person, sent by mail/package delivery service? It seems some significant law-breaking, state and federal, is involved in hosting a 'cup?']

Not to pick on the American Autoflower Cup (but I'm going to,) they are pulling in random growers from all over the country (but it's not a very big event, and I believe they consider it a private one. We can pretend it's not happening, but laws are quite likely being broken for these growers to mail, travel with, or otherwise cross so many state lines with what is otherwise illegal contraband. I don't think many cups would have taken place if everyone was 110% about the law, and I can just about guarantee that these cups have a "you can mail us your shit, but don't tell anyone and we won't publicly advertise this as an option" option (wink wink.)

I'm really only interested in what I can buy from seed selling companies. I have little or no interest in strains/seeds developed by individuals or very small companies where the seeds are not readily available from established seed selling sources.

What is your definition of a seed selling company? I mean AFN has been home to many growers-turned-breeders, and I've seen better reviews on some of our "small time, indie" breeders than I have with some of the larger companies that have represented here in the past. Would you consider Gnome Automatics small time? I've seen entire farms with Dan's genetics on them, his autoflowers sold as flower in dispensaries, and concentrates made from his flower sold in dispensaries. But he doesn't breed on a large outfit or a farm?

 

[Frankthetank]

Would you consider Gnome Automatics small time?

Only if height is taken into account

 

[Son of Hobbes]

Only if height is taken into account

Hey. I'm the only one who gets to make fun of Dan. Long lost Duck Dynasty relative. Stunt double for Gimli in the Lord of the Rings.

 

[Frankthetank]

I'm the only one who gets to make fun of Dan.

I’m sorry, did I strike you as a rule follower? FTP

 

[Son of Hobbes]

FTP

Frank the Penis?

lol

"oh I'm sorry, that was my father."