New Grower Waira's 11-strain-in-the-membrane outdoor grow

[Sir Chiefs a Lot1]

Your girls are looking great Waira. At the rate yours are going they might finish before mine. Right now I have zero but growth at the moment. And the purple is really starting to come out in the PK. Keep it up man!

 

[sapphire420]

Wow, not sure how I missed your update, waira!!

OK first, I LOVE your garden patrol! That is very cool you have a resident predator! :twist: And s/he DOES look to be giving you the "stank-eye!" HILARIOUS! Looks like a nice healthy specimen...

Now I still think you are being too hard on yourself and the ladies! Mine took FOREVER to sprout up, and I'm sure yours will have more vertical growth - it's only week 5 yet... I kind of like the mono-cola look, even if it's not going to produce as many flowers... Looks so precise, neat and clean or something. :booya: I think they ALL look so healthy and happy, the color is great - give them and yourself some credit!

Sorry I missed your update sooner! I had been on the look out too... LOL

Catchya later! :smokebuds:

 

[Waira]

There's no substitute for experience,...except maybe the wisdom of the Experienced! Lucky for us n00b's there's a plethora of that here, and is kindly offered just for the asking,... When I put the time, effort, and $$ into something that I'm passionate about, I set the bar fairly high, because I find that if one doesn't, and relies on flyshit luck, ones usually ends up with a steaming bag instead of a stinky sack! With that in mind, I asked one of AFN's finest to review my grow, and help me troubleshoot some of the issues I have with my current results, and figure out what to change/do better next time... :brow:

[message to Muddy]

Re: A critical eye on why,....

Good day, sir! Thanks again for taking the time with me,... here's a summary of the grow details-

> Pots down 4/2; seeds germ'ed and placed into pots just as the shoot emerges, no prob's in process
> pot sizes were about 2L to 1 gal, using a 80/20 blend of light warrior/ocean forest; all but 3 late germs placed in this mix, the late's were put into Vital Earth soil (a bit 'warmer' than LW, has a more muddy texture so I lightened it up with my carnivorous plant mix, mostly peat w/ sand and perlite)... for the sake of this discussion, let's just ignore the one MI5 and Star Ryder that remain really runty because of whatever issues they have since emerging, regardless of soil. ( all soils have myco's in them)
> soil pH 7; tried to bring it down with ro water w/ wd vinegar (1tsp/gal) - pH'ed to 6-; no effect after 10 days; tap water is about 180ppm, used to moisten soil initially during planting; after trial period, I blended water about 50/50 (tap water was allowed to gas off the Cl)
> all went right outside as soon as they broke surface, but came in at night for warmth, for first 2+ weeks
> full sun, temps mid 60's-70's; when outside at night, not exposed to less than 50 F; some breezy days, stems stiffened accordingly; light hrs a bit under 13
> weeks 1-2+, no nute's, just Superthrive; w2 they got 1st dose of 1.5tsp/gal molasses
> w3- some were looking a bit light in color, so got foliar 1/2 strength spray of GreenAll chelated Fe/Mn/Zn/Cu + 2-0-0 N, plus some in soil as well; treated w/spray 2 times over several days, problem corrected...meanwhile->
> friend Rebel noted that LW is very low on nute's, could also be why color was off, and plant sizes were smallish, so late w3, they all got 1/4 strength fert. soln. using: Growmore 20-10-20 urea free orchid food + Grow Power all purpose 4-8-2 w/2% humic acids; didn't soak the soil with this soln.
> few days later, plants looked better, so they got another round of same soln.; result- mild to moderate burn!! necrosis on new growth tips, leaf curl within 24hrs, growth halted
> all pots flushed w/ clear water only right away; after 2 days, soil pH still 7
> w4 no nutes, just superthrive and a bit of molasses; plants showed good improvement, growth resumed; transplant time!
> * stupid mistake noted, too much N likely from orchid food, and/or....?
> during this time, plants were moved to final pots, about 2.5-3gal, in 50/50 blend of OF and VE; zero trauma!
> late w4, I picked up new fert's: Botanicare Progrow 3-2-4 organic; plants got 1/4 str. dose, no others added; plants were fine ....
> by this time, all plants were sexed
> every 3 days after, for 3 feedings, they got this soln. (same conc) + Big Bloom (all nute #'s on this product are 0.xx, very mild); plants love it!
> still getting a little superthrive (1/4 tsp) + molasses (@ 2tsp/gal) in between
> since then, I feed every other day @ 1/3 str. and have started to add Growpower to blend (looking to keep nute #'s with decent N, but still favor P)
> at this point, there's a fair amount of differences between strains in terms of bud development; ranges from just barely showing pistils in the B. Lee's, to some well formed crowns in others...
> I have Tiger Bloom (2-8-4) as well, BTW; now, it looks like I need to mix slightly different solns. for the plants at diff. stages
> I think vertical growth has slowed markedly in most; sunlight hrs about 14 now, temps 70's, a few low 80's; Time to switch to full bloom ferts for most?

***some other notes: when foliar spraying, I use Romeo brand water spreader;

Currently, all but the B.Lee's are under 1ft; most have minimal side branching, which is expected in some, but certainly not nearly all, ditto for height; WIND- mild to moderate breezes are nearly constant, but the plants showed no sign of wind burn or water stress, all stiffed up well,... we had some very gusty days here and there, but no damage seen...
At no point did the plants show any sign of moderate to severe specific or general nutritional issues, just some slight signs of possible Fe def. in some of the plants as described above...
Soils, fert's and other supplements are all of high quality..
Trauma/stressers were minimal, nute' burn aside,..
So, why the short and stubby plants? Not enough light hours? Not warm enough overall? wind stunting? Nute' issues? A mix of these?.... I see the pieces of the puzzle, Muddy-san, but I can't resolve the big picture here,... My grow thread has other details I might have left out, and pics of course; I can take some new ones if you'd like to see something specific...I hope you can see something I can't here! Thank you again Muddy, you've been good to me from the get-go, and I'm much obliged!
​

[Sensei Muddy-san]-

Re: A critical eye on why,....

I sounds like a combination of things. I'm getting to really hate soils. pH out of the bag vary too much. I've seen it anywhere from 7 all the way down to 4.5. When it's up around 7, which is where the Pro Mix I use usually is, I have to add something to help bring it down. I've experimented with elemental sulfur, cottonseed meal and aluminum sulfate. My tests are still on going but the aluminum sulfate seems to work the best. I'm still zeroing in on the amount but 6 grams per gallon of 17.09% is looking to be about right. Most who are using the OF/HF go with a 50/50 mix. I think the higher HF ratio wasn't providing enough nutrients for your seedlings, hence the light color. If you run into that again, a foliar feeding of 1 part household ammonia to 10 parts water, applied once a day for 2 days, will quickly take care of that. Then there's the overfeeding and flushing. Flushing, especially that early in the grow, is stressful on the plants. I only flush as a last ditch effort to save a plant.

The key to bigger yields on autos is getting them as big as possible during veg. Anything adverse that happens during those first 4-5 weeks is going to stunt them. You had the lack of N, the overfeeding, and the flushing that all impacted them negatively. So it doesn't surprise me that they were stunted. Also, growing them outdoors, with the lower amount of light, is going to keep them smaller. When I grow some outdoors I always start them indoors under my 250 watt CFL veg light and only move them outdoors around week 4, after they have sexed. I also wouldn't leave them outdoors at night if the temps are going to below about 60. Cold roots will also retard growth.

Growing is a continuing learning experience, so don't be hard on yourself. I still mess things up from time to time myself, usually because I'm always trying different things. You might look around and see if you can find a more reliable soil to use. Sunshine #4 would be a good choice if you can find it locally. Or mix your OF/HF a month or so ahead of time, buy an Accurate 8 soil pH probe, and balance the pH before you plant. Also get some veg nutes designed for growing weed, like the Grow Big. I think if you eliminate the veg issues you'll get much bigger plants in veg and corresponding higher yields.
​

:thumbs::thumbs::thumbs::thumbs::thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:

In his usual style, Muddy-san says a lot in a few words,...
This has helped clear the fog around many of the cause -and-effect issues I've had, how to deal with them at the time, and prevent them in the future... (LOL!) not that I still don't have questions, and wish to delve deeper into some subjects,... which I'll do here so folks can learn as I do...

*Muddy-san* - I think you and some others have talked me out of soils, notably one new grower here Sapphire420; she's growing outside, in nearly the same climate, with plants about 10 days ahead of mine, using Roots Organic in some and OF in others; the RO plants are clearly doing better, all other things being equal... Next grow, that's likely how I'll roll...
The pH thing,... from what read in MJ books and see in various nutrient availability charts, 7 is within acceptable range; Iron is the only nute' that begins partial locked out at this pH,.... are auto's something of an exception to this? I seem to recall reading something about Aluminum compounds being potentially toxic, or is that only at an extreme pH? The wd vinegar I tried was either too weak, lacked lasting effect, and/or the soil was buffered like hell,... what do you think? Oh yeah, I used Light Warrior, not HF, in my mix... I think LW is a step 'cooler' than HF..? Well, it doesn't matter now anyway! I'm likely going RO next time, and planting directly, if that's safe for the seedlings... the Sunshine #4, is that a 'soilless' mix, like Promix? Both are readily available, but in my attempt to maintain the K.I.S.S. method, soilless media are out for various reasons...despite all the fabulous results folks here get using them! Time to research that some... When I got the nute' burn and flushed, I didn't do so to the point that water was pouring out the pot bottoms, but just enough to get some trickling, which I'm guessing was the best thing to do?
I figured that the light hours and temps would be negative factors for my grow, just part of the compromise for growing outside KISS style, but wasn't sure to what degree. What about wind?... have you heard or experienced stunting in autos as a natural reaction of the plant to adapt to this? The line is blurry here between how some strains grow by design, and how they adapt to such a physical stress...
Wow, Muddy, I thought growing species type orchids was as much art as science, but these auto's, fantastic plants as they are, take the prize on that! as you said to me early on, that narrow window of time during vegging is honestly beyond critical,.. there's no room or time for error without downstream consequences...! So, if the Green Goddess be willing, on my next grow I'll take the proverbial advice Yoda gave,.. "apply what you have learned, help you it can!" ... my continued thanks Muddy-san for your help....!!
​

 

[sapphire420]

Way to go right to Muddy and get some solid, straightforward info! There is no substitute for experience, that's so true! And the willingness of leaders/masters/ experienced growers here that share THEIR valuable experience makes this forum a special place, indeed. :check:

Hey, I'm honored to be included in your sphere of influence as far as the soils go - it feels good to know that an experiment I'm doing for my own info is helpful to you :buds: We'll keep working on our KISS methods!

I personally don't think that light hours and temps are "negative" factors for your grow - they are just factors! We can't control the weather, it just is what it is. As outdoor growers we can move plants inside when it gets colder when they are little, but once they are set in the larger containers or planted in the yard it's all NATURE, baby!! Uncontrollable, but watch how they thrive despite a cold spell or a brief encounter with some bugs... The thrill of it all is SO worth the unpredictability, in my opinion. And what's wrong with the sunshine?? True, it doesn't beat down incredible and artificial amounts of lumens (or however that works), but it's NATURE!! These plants LOVE the fresh air and sunshine like all the plants do, and our lemon tree or tomatoes never "want" for extra light, they simply thrive.

I'm not against indoor growing at ALL, I just want you to know that it's not necessarily a "disadvantage" to grow outside - it is what it is, and what it is is nature, and nature is pretty danged amazing!

Now waira, of course another round of autos is mandatory at this point, don't you think?? You'll get another whole grow to apply your lessons from this grow to, and make your mistakes to learn from on your next grow - all in one season! I wouldn't pass up that opportunity, if you have the means to do it, my friend. I pull my hair out making notes and observations practically daily to make the most of each season - since before autos I got one shot at it per year... Soooo, let's DO THIS! :smokebuds: I mean, if you want to! LOL Pardon my soap box this morning, I feel fired up. My girlfriends are stoked about "their" namesakes in the yard, the photo grow is finally coming together, and the sun is out! I'm going to go enjoy that sunshine, hope you get to, tooooo!

:group:

PS - I haven't forgotten you mentioned pictures coming soon....

 

[Waira]

[Sapphire] - G'day, mate! I see your coffee cup was extra large today! :cough: You g-g-g-ooo girl! LMAO! No, no luv, I'm the honored one because I'm getting quality input from your experiment! Your results are influencing me to change up what is arguably the single most important thing for us outdoor types- soils! I've thought a lot about going to the soiless mixes, but the nutritional and pH management for that is a whole separate skill, best learned after a couple-few grows are under ones' belt,... but when it's dialed in, the results are fantastic! ...and there are finely tuned products designed just for this.... ******* Outdoor growing is also a whole 'nother fish to fry,... when I'm referring to this, it's in comparison to growing indoors, where one is the 'god of all growth factors', and those with the skills are able to control things to the point of maximizing the potential in their plants because of this; outdoors, as you say, is 'we get what we get', and must work within the limitations that this imposes on us,.. there is also no substitute for optimized growing parameters, especially light hours (as we've discussed)! No where on earth is there a place where plants can get 20hrs of light and nice warm temps at the same time!.. but they don't know that, they just love it and show it by growing into the micro-monsters we see here,... (LOL!) Verily, we can't torment ourselves comparing our results with those indoor folken! Believe me, I'm not hacking on the 'outdoors' at all,... frankly, we have to hone a whole separate set of skills to do this well, and many are the indoor growers who stumble about and head-smack some when they take a crack at it!... And our skill set can be applied to any plant outside, so we wield a much more practical skill set to boot...

Now waira, of course another round of autos is mandatory at this point, don't you think?? You'll get another whole grow to apply your lessons from this grow to, and make your mistakes to learn from on your next grow - all in one season! I wouldn't pass up that opportunity, if you have the means to do it, my friend.

Oh my yes, Mrs. S'! :brow: Part of what's behind that is missing here because it was in my messages to Muddy-san,... I'm currently living at the ol' family homestead, with my elderly (91) father, watching out for him and maintaining the house,... sadly though, when he goes, so does the house...so, any 'farming 'I do has to done keeping this in mind,... I'm sure you can imagine the complications behind this situation,... but I'm angling for it, and am seriously thinking of trying HighRise gear, from our inhouse uber-breeder Cres! His works are well documented here, and the strain quality is among the very best out there.... it won't be the multi-flavor grow I have now, unless I can beggar him to offer a mixed strain pack.. look HighRise up here; seeds are available through RCMC....
Hey, I was wondering,... where the rest of the Sex in the City girls are in your garden ? :brow: You got room for a Carrie, Samantha and Miranda now,... :roflcry: I'll get pics up later this afternoon.... Thanks luv! :buds:

 

[Waira]

*week 6*
Well, here they are at about the half way point; bud sites are starting to fill in nicely, some aromas are appearing; vermin presence has been pleasantly light...


<- Star Ryders

<-- the runt has a purple crown! Hmmmm,...

<--Mi5's

<-- B. Lee's
<--RRF's
<--Cobra's
<--Hercules
<-- PK; coloration deepens more and more, this is a lovely plant!
<Red dwarfs'

...UV pic has gone ..., next time! ... Just a quick and dirty photo drop for now...

 

[Muddy]

Thanks for the kind words. I've seen some great grows done in soils but for the last year or so, it seems their quality control has suffered and hence, the wide variations in their soil pH right out of the bag. Like Pro Mix, Sunshine is considered semi soil less. The main difference between the two is that the Sunshine Mix also contains coco coir and seems to have a lower pH right out of the bag. If I had a choice I would probably use it over Pro Mix, but unfortunately it's not available in my area.

Yes, in large quantities aluminum sulfate can be detrimental to plants. But it's been the standard in the nursery business for years to lower pH of acid loving plants. I've inspected my roots when my plants are finished and I've not seen any ill effects at the levels we're talking. I still have a healthy myco herd so it's not harming them, which is where you would expect to see it have any negative effects. As I said, I've not completed my tests with it, but it does appear to be the best thing available to lower the starting pH of Pro Mix.

*Muddy-san* - I think you and some others have talked me out of soils, notably one new grower here Sapphire420; she's growing outside, in nearly the same climate, with plants about 10 days ahead of mine, using Roots Organic in some and OF in others; the RO plants are clearly doing better, all other things being equal... Next grow, that's likely how I'll roll...
The pH thing,... from what read in MJ books and see in various nutrient availability charts, 7 is within acceptable range; Iron is the only nute' that begins partial locked out at this pH,.... are auto's something of an exception to this? I seem to recall reading something about Aluminum compounds being potentially toxic, or is that only at an extreme pH? The wd vinegar I tried was either too weak, lacked lasting effect, and/or the soil was buffered like hell,... what do you think? Oh yeah, I used Light Warrior, not HF, in my mix... I think LW is a step 'cooler' than HF..? Well, it doesn't matter now anyway! I'm likely going RO next time, and planting directly, if that's safe for the seedlings... the Sunshine #4, is that a 'soilless' mix, like Promix? Both are readily available, but in my attempt to maintain the K.I.S.S. method, soilless media are out for various reasons...despite all the fabulous results folks here get using them! Time to research that some... When I got the nute' burn and flushed, I didn't do so to the point that water was pouring out the pot bottoms, but just enough to get some trickling, which I'm guessing was the best thing to do?
I figured that the light hours and temps would be negative factors for my grow, just part of the compromise for growing outside KISS style, but wasn't sure to what degree. What about wind?... have you heard or experienced stunting in autos as a natural reaction of the plant to adapt to this? The line is blurry here between how some strains grow by design, and how they adapt to such a physical stress...
Wow, Muddy, I thought growing species type orchids was as much art as science, but these auto's, fantastic plants as they are, take the prize on that! as you said to me early on, that narrow window of time during vegging is honestly beyond critical,.. there's no room or time for error without downstream consequences...! So, if the Green Goddess be willing, on my next grow I'll take the proverbial advice Yoda gave,.. "apply what you have learned, help you it can!" ... my continued thanks Muddy-san for your help....!!
[/INDENT][/INDENT]

 

[Sir Chiefs a Lot1]

Well said Muddy. And Waira, we need that pic of the UV ASAP! Lol. I need to compare notes.

 

[StickMan]

There's no substitute for experience,...except maybe the wisdom of the Experienced!

Hey waira, That is one of the best quotes/truths that I've one read in a long time. How TRUE it is.

Lucky for us n00b's there's a plethora of that here, and is kindly offered just for the asking,... When I put the time, effort, and $$ into something that I'm passionate about, I set the bar fairly high, because I find that if one doesn't, and relies on flyshit luck, ones usually ends up with a steaming bag instead of a stinky sack!

Man, is that not also the truth, and I feel the same way in all respects.
Thanks so much for posting brother Muddy's reply to you on your thread. I learned so many more things from it. I believe he has been growing for 40 years.

I like you, did so much research in preparation for our outdoor growing adventures. But for me I always seem have to go through the school of hard knocks It is so overwhelming to have these master growers; that promptly and really go into detail to help us nOObs out in every way possible.

My latest, Oh, I won't do that again moment was: I started hardening a 20 of my plants off on Sunday. Tuesday, I transplanted 7 of them into 3 gal pots, and still have 13, in party cups. (Waiting to show their parts) So, I wasn't even thinking about the nighttime temps in my attached garage or setting them out here in the early morning. My mind set was only concerned with the # of hours of light the kids were getting outdoors, since they were getting 18 hours of lights indoors. Between the under 60 temps in the garage, and well below that at 6:00 am outdoors, they definitely were showing signs of low temps and possibly too much temp swings, between night and day. Whew, caught than one in time! After bringing them back into the house for just one night, and waiting until 8:00 am to put them out, they recovered by 75% in just 24 hours. My thanks once again for being able to diagnose the problem by info presented here at AFN.https://www.autoflower.org/f74/self-diagnose-your-plants-basic-deficiencies-list-11.html Thanks jm :thumbs:



I'm so glad that you have the climate to do 2 outdoor Auto grows a year. I only get one chance.

I don't know yet if this is good or bad, but I have two females that showed up after only two weeks, but they are only about 4 inches tall. I'm sure they are going to be mega runts.

I'm sure you have read many times, as I have, of now master growers saying that their first grows were complete failure, but they are so glad they stuck with it.
I think your plants look awesome for your first outdoor Auto grow, and with how many strains you went with.

Waira, ya, you were actually seeing into the future concerning this post being here before.

 

[Waira]

Waira, ya, you were actually seeing into the future concerning this post being here before.

:roflcry: You got there good Stickman! I was having one of those WTF moments, like when a drunk see something utterly baffling, looks at the bottle, blinks one eye at a time, back again, and tosses it.... except I was holding a bong! :joint: More later, gotta go watch the Giants game now....