Micorrhizae discussion - do we need more than one?

Hey every one, back from my jolly's and ready to join in the conversation

I'm not a science guy when it come to the microbes, I let others do that thinking for me then I trust their opinion. I'm a hands on approach type of guy so my findings are just purely observational.

The subject of microbes has been my recent experiments in the grow room. I've been using Mammoth P (MP) for the past year but recently wanted to see if it was really working and also is there a replacement out there on the market that is cheaper (i'm not complaining to much I reap back what MP cost me)... Urb nutrient have been shouting better than MP on there spill so I though i would give it a go... I've also been using Biosys by ecothrive as bi-weekly mini flush and for potting on and dusting my roots with Great white (GW).

Now I know i could be just using the same product over and over, Biosys and GW I think are the same on the microbes list but Biosys comes with kelp and the humic thingy's so better for a drench in my opinion... both are about the same cost... Now Urb looks like its has a lot less microbes that the other 2 but with extra added brown gooey stuff for everything to live in and stay alive... this means Urb has a self life over the powdered varieties.

What I have done so far is remove MP from my line up on 3 grows... dusting my roots with GW after potting on (always done that from the start) started a bi-weekly drench with the Biosys and following the advice from the chief grower at Urb to use it at the rate of 0.6ml to 1.0ml per ltr on a run to waste system (that's no where near what they recommend on the bottle).

My observational findings so far are as follows (these observations are with clones that have been grown out a couple of time. 2 strains, Alien Rift, and my Lemon Chello cut) -

I've noticed an increase in bud sites on both strains, very explosive and a slight game changer on yield ( 2 harvest are in, still to weigh but I know by looking I've hit record harvests for the space's)

I've also noticed that they have sped up by a few days, with one of my cuts (lemon chello) I'm doing the leaf strip at day 11 and not at day 14/15 as in previous grows.

It's also added and extra 2-3 inches on the stretch which caught me out with one space, plants got with-in 3" from the lights. They got well away from me and had a huge burst of stretch in week 3 that i was not expecting.

Calyx size has increased as well on both the strains, considerable more on my 3 different Alien Rift cuts

The big thing I did notice is the missing MP from the line up, yes i got more bud sites and bigger plants, bigger calyx's etc etc etc. so you could say with my new additions that they work better than MP... I don't think they do, they just work in a different way... what was missing from the grows was the MP plumpness, those buds are just not as dense and as big as they where with MP in the line up... so with Urb claiming to be better than MP I would say no your not BUT you make more bud sites / bigger plants to compensate on the missing yield MP brings in... this also showed me that MP does what it say on the tin, it really does work.

for the next 2 grows I've added MP back in with the Urb and the bi-weekly drench with Biosys... after those 2 grows I will remove Urb or Biosys then vice versa to see if they are just the same or working in there own way... I'm also playing with the amount of Urb I'm using, cut back on the second grow with it on the lemon chello from 1ml to 05.ml. We are in the 3rd week so far with no difference from drooping down to 0.5ml a ltr... this could mean Urb is doing bugger all and Biosys is doing all the work, only time will tell on that one... to be truthful there is something to that Urb but it could just be the gooey brown stuff they like to add that feeding the microbes from the Biosys, Urb has very small microbes list than the others.

Glad you’ve joined the conversation and thanks for the research! It’s fascinating and I can’t wait to hear your final conclusion. I’m guessing you’re on to something with the theory that both products have their place - just different places at different times.

I wonder whether we should start a thread under a better (more accurate) thread title? This is quickly turning more into a more general discussion of microbes in the growing of cannabis - theory and application. I think it’s a massively important subject as the use of chemical fertilizers is having a drastic negative effect on the soil world wide and on the groundwater - right along with pesticides. Heck, I just learned that if you work hard to build and maintain a healthy microbial population in your soil and then throw high number fertilizers I to the mix, you’ll either kill off many/most of the microbes or make those that don’t die go dormant; because your plant is like a junky - if it’s getting a nutrient ‘free of charge’ it will shut down the normal process of obtaining that nutrient. This is a likely cause of why many people think organically grown cannabis just tastes better.

In any case, glad you’re involved in the discussion!
 
Ok . I got to thinking , outdoor mycrobe farm . This is what I have come up with . It will be a long term thing no less than 5 months . I will only feed the soil , I will use Molasses - Fish hydrolysate - left over fruit mush from fresh fruit juice drinks that my wife makes at her work . She knows what is needed . I have to aims here , worms and mycorrhiza I plan to use it as a soil mix , as in adding to soil I already have , a inoculant in other words . When the time comes I will do 2 plants , one with one without . I am hoping the roots from the bamboo plant perminate the soil . I have started this in our dry season going into the wet season , If you guys are interested I will I will post updates here . First photo is where it is .
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This photo is the soil it is sitting on , No bottom .
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Now the soil I filled it with is very organic and is around 4 months old .
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Then I topped it with fruit mush
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Last a lid to stop the bloody critters getting in .
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Will this work , I think it will . My aim is and has always been to make as much as I from my local environment . I mulched it with sugar cane straw and and bamboo leaf .
 
Here are some really interesting YouTube interviews I’ve been listening to:











https://youtu.be/XAY4uSW71ec

https://youtu.be/QcA_Nh26mIE

https://youtu.be/DBCkkiFQo20

https://youtu.be/21TKobPRsZ4

Enjoy!


that's my weekend listening sorted then, nice one @DTOM420 :slap:

The biggest thing I've noticed since adding in those products I've mentioned is that my ppm's have been slashed and I think i can go even lower. I'm using a third of the recommended dose and with one grow with a couple of the plants i would say that's to much... the money saved over a year is going to be huge.

Watched the second vid down so far and digesting what was said, super super interesting and has me thinking loads for building my own compost for teas now
 
IMO many people either dont get the fact that soil is built typically.Cultivated even for various purposes.Even simple letting it sit in an environment can alter it at times.Depending again,on region,specific purpose(ie: canna,shrubs,acid loving plants, all sorts) but yet IMO instead of trying to go right for a canna soil(which is fine just a lil more tricky right off without a mix) ,try making a general purpose type soil for outdoor flowers and the like.once that works the next batch can be tailored.so its understood in steps so you will get thee most out of it imho ofcourse.


SOIL BACTERIA AND FUNGI — NEW SOUTH WALES
Key Points
Soil bacteria and soil fungi are the start of the soil food web that supports other soil organisms and the functions of a healthy soil.
Diverse populations of soil bacteria and fungi can suppress root diseases.
Soil bacteria and fungi are encouraged by ground cover and organic matter inputs.
Populations of soil bacteria change rapidly depending on moisture, time of year, type of crop, stubble management, etc.
Soil fungi are slower to develop, and are strongly set back by cultivation.


Soil bacteria
Bacteria are the most abundant microbes in the soil. They are single celled organisms, and there can be billions of bacteria in a single gram of soil. Populations of bacteria can boom or bust in the space of a few days in response to changes in soil moisture, soil temperature or carbon substrate. Some bacteria species are very fragile and may be killed by slight changes in the soil environment. Others are extremely tough, able to withstand severe heat, cold or drying. Some bacteria are dependent on specific plant species.



Soil fungi
Soil fungi are microscopic plant-like cells that can be single celled (e.g. yeast) or grow in long threadlike structures or hyphae that make a mass called mycelium. They can be symbiotic with plant roots (figure 1). Fungi are generally not as dependent on specific plant species as some bacteria, and populations are slower to develop.





Figure 1: Hyphae from mycorrhizal fungi emerging from plant roots. Photo: Paula Flynn, Iowa State University Extension

Types of bacteria
Decomposers: play an important role in the early stages of decomposition of organic materials (in the later stages fungi tend to dominate).

Nitrogen fixers: extract nitrogen gas from the air and convert it into forms that plants can use, and can add the equivalent of more than 100 kg/ha per year of nitrogen to the soil. Rhizobium bacteria live in special root nodules on legumes and can be inoculated onto legume seeds. Other free-living nitrogen-fixing bacteria associate with non-legumes, but inoculating with these organisms has not proved effective in increasing nitrogen fixation for non-legume crops.

Disease suppressors: release antibiotic substances to suppress particular competitors. A number of bacteria have been commercialised for disease suppression. Their effect is often specific to particular diseases of particular crops and may only be effective in certain circumstances.

Actinobacteria: help to slowly break down humates and humic acids in soils, and prefer non-acidic soils with pH higher than 5.

Sulfur oxidisers: Thiobacillus bacteria can covert sulfides (common in soil minerals but largely unavailable to plants) into sulfates, a form plants can use.

Aerobes and anaerobes: Aerobic bacteria need oxygen, and dominate in well drained soil. Anaerobic bacteria do not need oxygen, and favour wet, poorly drained soils. They can produce toxic compounds that limit root growth and predispose plants to root diseases.



Fungi groups
Decomposers: are essential for breaking down woody organic matter, They play an important role in immobilising and retaining nutrients in the soil. The organic acids they produce help create soil organic matter that is resistant to degradation.

Mutualists: develop mutually beneficial relationships with plants. Mycorrhizal fungi are the best known, and grow inside plant roots. Arbuscular mycorrhiza (VAM) are the most common, especially in agricultural plant associations. These fungi have arbuscles, growths formed inside the plant root that have many small projections into root cells, as well as their hyphae outside the root (figure 1). This growth pattern increases the plant’s contact with the soil, improving access to water and nutrients, while their mass of hyphae protects roots from pests and pathogens.

Pathogens: (including the well known Verticillium, Phytophthora, Rhizoctonia and Pythium fungi) penetrate the plant and decompose the living tissue, leading to weakened or dead plants. Where disease symptoms are seen, the pathogenic fungi is usually the dominant organism in the soil. Soils with high biodiversity can suppress soil-borne fungal diseases.



Management of soil bacteria
Though largely unaffected by cultivation, bacteria populations are depressed by dry conditions, acidity, salinity, soil compaction and lack of organic matter. Except in the case of certain seed inoculations, it is very difficult to build desirable populations of bacteria just by adding them to the soil. If populations of soil bacteria are low, it is probably because conditions are unfavourable. Effective approaches (that have multiple benefits) to support healthy soil bacteria are to address problems of acidity and compaction, ensure good ground cover and build organic matter.



Management of soil fungi
You can encourage fungi in your soil by providing food (organic matter), water and minimal disturbance of the soil. Growing pastures and crops that support mycorrhizal fungi allow fungi to increase in the soil.

Plant groups that do not form associations with mycorrhizal fungi are the Cruciferae family (eg mustard, canola, broccoli), Chenopodiaceae (eg spinach, beets, saltbush) and Proteaceae (banksia, macadamia). When these plants are included in a rotation, fungi numbers drop. A bare fallow has the same effect.

Tillage has a disastrous effect on fungi as it physically severs the hyphae and breaks up the mycelium. Broadspectrum fungicides are toxic to most fungi and will result in a decline in beneficial types.

https://permaculturenews.org/2016/11/14/making-microbes-fungal-vs-bacterial-soil-life/
 
IMO you might find it easier in the start up to make a general mix and dial it with Tea which is something youll need to start reading about. I like Teas a LOT too.I highly recommend looking into Tea recipes n so on. And as well,Dr. Elaine Ingham is fantastic.Couldn't recommend highly enough.I have a few of her Books of her.As well as a cpl she did a colab with.
 
Great stuff, @Eyes on Fire ! I really like the point about the changing bacterial populations. Can’t remember where I was reading or listening to something about that point: that these populations are fluid as a result of environmental changes as well as influences from competing bacteria and predatory microbes nocking down specific bacteria in an unending dance in the soil. Also, I just learned that plants will actually INFLUENCE the bacterial and fungal populations by producing different exudates to encourage whatever microbes it needs to help fulfill their uptake needs. Such cool stuff!
 
Ok . I got to thinking , outdoor mycrobe farm . This is what I have come up with . It will be a long term thing no less than 5 months . I will only feed the soil , I will use Molasses - Fish hydrolysate - left over fruit mush from fresh fruit juice drinks that my wife makes at her work . She knows what is needed . I have to aims here , worms and mycorrhiza I plan to use it as a soil mix , as in adding to soil I already have , a inoculant in other words . When the time comes I will do 2 plants , one with one without . I am hoping the roots from the bamboo plant perminate the soil . I have started this in our dry season going into the wet season , If you guys are interested I will I will post updates here . First photo is where it is .
View attachment 957997
This photo is the soil it is sitting on , No bottom . View attachment 957998
View attachment 957999
Now the soil I filled it with is very organic and is around 4 months old .
View attachment 958000 View attachment 958001
Then I topped it with fruit mush
View attachment 958002
Last a lid to stop the bloody critters getting in .
View attachment 958003
Will this work , I think it will . My aim is and has always been to make as much as I from my local environment . I mulched it with sugar cane straw and and bamboo leaf .


Heck yeah!! I hope you will update your progress regularly in this thread. I’ve got a lot to learn. I’ve been listening to more of the KIS Organics videos hosted by Tad Hussey. I started with the first of those KIS interviews and I’ve been slowly working my way through them. Absolutely fascinating stuff but an overwhelming amount of information.

I got in touch with a guy that’s not too far from me that’s a big time vermicomposter who raises worms for sale and sells castings to a select number of people locally. I don’t think he’s a canna guy but we hit it off talking vegetables and he’s willing to take me under his wing to help me with the vermicomposting thing. He’s been part of some major research projects on vermicomposting and really seems to know his stuff. So, I’m hoping I’ll be able to share some good info in that regard. I think worms are a MAJOR key to all this. I’ve never made a tea in my life and have yet to even make my tea maker (yet) but my research seems to lean towards vermicompost tea being even more effective than traditional compost tea. So, my goal is going to be raising my own worms and composting locally sourced (horse, cow & chicken) manures that’s inoculated with IMO.

Finally, before I bore y’all, I wanted to mention Neem. I was listening to the KIS Organics interview with Clackamus Coot (o various forum fame for his soil recipe and info on soil building - a.k.a. Lumperdawgz on Grass City) and he talked about (see episode 2 below - he starts takllking about it almost immediately) incorporating Neem and Karanja meal into his vermicomposting and that it has has a big benefit in preventing disease and pests. That and his talk about diastatic malted barley (video is below - listen @ 42:20) for teas and vermicomposting. It’s supposedly amazing and can be sourced cheaply at beer brew stores. I LOVE listening to these guys that have found ways to build amazing things using products that are either cheap or relatively inexpensive. That guy Coot is a hoot! Took me a while to warm to him. I almost stopped listening several times during episode 1 of his interview but, by the time the 3rd episode was over, I had a new-found respect for the guy.

Episode 1:


Episode 2:
 
Yup,the plant uses the life and essentially morph it and use it for what they need it for. The coating or areas around the roots is its own little world man.Its being manipulated,fed and coddled to do the plants bidding really. it excretes sugars in a few forms to enhance or even control the life foods,activity and so on over the course.
 
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