Seedling Veinal chlorosis, ongoing problem with multiple setups

[coolno9]

Problem: Veinal chlorosis on first true leaves, roughly 4 days from sprout

Medium/grow method: Autopots, but never get old enough to turn on, so: Hand watering. Multiple mediums tested. Cultivation Nation + additional perlite, Promix HPCC, Happy Frog, and as a last resort Miracle Gro potting mix because it normally makes anything grow for a while

Feed: and supplements used: PH ranging from 5.5 up to 7.0 for multiple tests. PPM from 30 (storebought distilled water only) up to 1000 just to see if I can get any sort of change. Greenleaf Megacrop 1 part, GenHydro FloraNova, GenHydro Flora series Grow, Nature's Living Soil Autoflower Concentrate. I have used all of these in different tests - not together. Nothing changes outcome.

water source: Tap - 300ppm 7.4ph, store bought distilled - 30ppm 7.0ph, water from friend's well - 150ppm, 7.2ph

Strain/age: Many different Mephisto Genetics strains, too many to remember. Also tried Ethos Pluto Runtz Auto and Purple Thai Auto

light used: Mars Hydro FCE6500, Enjoyield diy240, both tried on separate tests with differing amounts of power and distance from plants, use photone app to check dli, dli ranging from 5-20 on different tests, no changes other than at low dli seedlings stretch

Climate: Using ac infinity controller 69 pro, have tried VPD ranging from .8-1.2

Additional info: This has been ongoing for 4 months now, every seed I germinate via the paper towel method, when a tap root comes out I put in the pots in the tent. After 4 days or so veins begin yellowing, and continue to progress. Plant is very slow to grow if at all. Does not respond to nutrients, I can feed them an obviously overdose amount of nutrients with absolutely no change. I have repeatedly each week popped new seeds to test out new things and every week it is the same, roughly day 4 above ground symptoms start. Used 4 different soils, amended, non amended, peat to completely inert coco mixes. Have used 3 different water sources, dechlorinated tap, distilled, well water from friend's house. All of these water sources have been tested non adjusted and adjusted to different ph's over the months of this problem, 5.5 ph going in does no different than not ph'ing my tap water and putting it in at 7.4. Water amounts have been tested at multiple levels. Have tried soaking entire medium with water on planting, all the way down to intentionally underwatering.

A little background, this is supposed to be my 3rd grow in this tent if I can ever get something to grow. It's been 4 months of trying every variable I can think of. Every seed I plant ends up looking like the pictures. In one of the pictures I have a plant in the background showing advanced stages of the problem. Posting more pictures would only be redundant, no matter what I try they all do the same thing. I've tried 4 different soil mixes, tried amending some with NLS autoflower concentrate. Tried 3 different types of water, running all the way from completely base non ph adjusted water, to ph'd down to 5.5 at the lowest, no nutrients all the way up to 1000ppms trying to get anything to change, no changes observed. Tried watering as little as a tablespoon on initial plant and waiting until the plant shows drooping from lack of water, all the way up to soaking medium. Megacrop 1 part and genhydro flora grow and floranova bloom used separately in different tests ranging from 100ppm up to 1000ppm.

The autopots are the new addition to the tent this grow, but I am not even getting to the point where I can turn them on, they're no different than a big plastic pot. I've also tried solo cups and ac infinity cloth pots to rule out something in the plastic from autopots, no change.

I have tried so many different things, because at this point I want to see anything different. Nothing changes, I could show a hundred pictures of different seedlings over these 4 months and they all look exactly the same no matter differing variable of that seedling. I have wasted around 50 seeds so far. It's disheartening I've never had problems at least getting any type of plant to grow, I've been gardening with my mom since I could walk, so nearly 40 years now. What am I missing? Why is this run failing so early? Any help would be greatly appreciated.

 

[namvet25]

What type of soil are these in. Have you given them nutes or anything else? Either you gave them somthing wrong or there somthing wrong with your soil mix Hoe close are your lights?















/

 

[coolno9]

What type of soil are these in. Have you given them nutes or anything else? Either you gave them somthing wrong or there somthing wrong with your soil mix Hoe close are your lights?















/

In the first post I listed all of this: Soil types tested individually: Cultivation Nation (70/30) coco perlite, ProMix HPCC (inert mostly peat based with coir chunks) Happy Frog, and for the sake of testing something else: Miracle Gro Potting Mix. I have tried both fertilizing and not fertilizing 3 different types of water serparately, and separate tests of ph'ing and not ph'ing the water and nutrient mixes have been tested. I have also specifically tried to overfeed the plants to see if i could even do that. No amount of food changes the problem. Lights used are either a mars hydro fce6500 or an Enjoyield diy240. Distances ranging from 24 inches up to 48 inches above, varying power levels also tested. With photone app I have tried DLI ranging from 5 to 20 with no change in the problem I'm having.

 

[DoobieGrows]

1,000 ppm is way too much for auto seedlings. They only need 300 ppm maximum for at least a week or two. Also your tap water at 300 ppm may be bad for them also. Hey yourself a cheap RO buddie on Amazon. Are you giving them any Cal/Mag,?

 

[namvet25]

Just leave them alone and see if they get any better.Just keep them moist and if they continue like this you may have to start over but try a different soil mix but dont feed them for a couple weeks or more

 

[Mañ'O'Green]

@coolno9 Welcome to AFN . What is the one variable that you have not changed on every grow? Germinating in a paper towel. Is it possible the paper towels you are using have bleaching chemicals in them? The damage looks to me like a heavy metal poisoning? What do the roots of the inflicted plants look like? Very carefully rinse the soil away from one and look for deformation. This is what copper toxicity looks like.

Good roots have fine pure white hair roots.

I know that a lot of growers swear by it and their proof is the fact that many plants survive the technique but unless seeds are old or have been stored poorly soaking seeds is not needed and can drown them. Then because they need the instant gratification of seeing the tap root they germinate them in paper towels. If you look at a tap root under 200x magnification you will see the “root hairs” that grow laterally out from the tap root. These become the plant’s uptake roots. They will grow into the fibers of the paper towels and are ripped off every time the seedling is moved or the towel is opened – ouch. This opens the seed to secondary infections. When transplanting, it is very easy to bump the tap root tip and damage it or kill the seedling – Why? White paper towels may have bleach and other detrimental chemicals remaining from the manufacturing process.

Put the fresh or properly stored seed ½” deep in a Rapid Rooter, Root Riot, rock wool cube or similar or right in the soil. Jiffy peat pots PH is too low – buffer them before use. Keep moist – not wet, and ~80°F, 60% humidity with your blue (veg) lights on and they will germinate if viable. I use 25% strength week one nutrients with a little kelp to moisten my starter cubes. Most strains will germinate in 5 to 7 days. Some strains take longer than others. The African sativas can take 21+ days so be patient. If your seeds are not fresh or have been stored poorly an 8-hour soak in a weak kelp solution can encourage germination. Kelp has natural Gibberellic acid GA3 which is a growth stimulator.

 

[coolno9]

@coolno9 Welcome to AFN . What is the one variable that you have not changed on every grow? Germinating in a paper towel. Is it possible the paper towels you are using have bleaching chemicals in them? The damage looks to me like a heavy metal poisoning? What do the roots of the inflicted plants look like? Very carefully rinse the soil away from one and look for deformation. This is what copper toxicity looks like.

View attachment 1579591

Good roots have fine pure white hair roots.

I know that a lot of growers swear by it and their proof is the fact that many plants survive the technique but unless seeds are old or have been stored poorly soaking seeds is not needed and can drown them. Then because they need the instant gratification of seeing the tap root they germinate them in paper towels. If you look at a tap root under 200x magnification you will see the “root hairs” that grow laterally out from the tap root. These become the plant’s uptake roots. They will grow into the fibers of the paper towels and are ripped off every time the seedling is moved or the towel is opened – ouch. This opens the seed to secondary infections. When transplanting, it is very easy to bump the tap root tip and damage it or kill the seedling – Why? White paper towels may have bleach and other detrimental chemicals remaining from the manufacturing process.

Put the fresh or properly stored seed ½” deep in a Rapid Rooter, Root Riot, rock wool cube or similar or right in the soil. Jiffy peat pots PH is too low – buffer them before use. Keep moist – not wet, and ~80°F, 60% humidity with your blue (veg) lights on and they will germinate if viable. I use 25% strength week one nutrients with a little kelp to moisten my starter cubes. Most strains will germinate in 5 to 7 days. Some strains take longer than others. The African sativas can take 21+ days so be patient. If your seeds are not fresh or have been stored poorly an 8-hour soak in a weak kelp solution can encourage germination. Kelp has natural Gibberellic acid GA3 which is a growth stimulator.

Hey thanks for the great information. I have taken some pictures of a currently failing seedling to show you. I couldn't quite get all the dirt off, hope it's easy enough to see. If the remaining dirt looks wet, it is because I swished the roots around in water trying to loosen the dirt. It doesn't look like anything too out of the ordinary in the root system to me at least, maybe I am missing something though. I will be starting again this week and try one of the germination methods you listed.

 

[DoobieGrows]

@coolno9 Welcome to AFN . What is the one variable that you have not changed on every grow? Germinating in a paper towel. Is it possible the paper towels you are using have bleaching chemicals in them? The damage looks to me like a heavy metal poisoning? What do the roots of the inflicted plants look like? Very carefully rinse the soil away from one and look for deformation. This is what copper toxicity looks like.

View attachment 1579591

Good roots have fine pure white hair roots.

I know that a lot of growers swear by it and their proof is the fact that many plants survive the technique but unless seeds are old or have been stored poorly soaking seeds is not needed and can drown them. Then because they need the instant gratification of seeing the tap root they germinate them in paper towels. If you look at a tap root under 200x magnification you will see the “root hairs” that grow laterally out from the tap root. These become the plant’s uptake roots. They will grow into the fibers of the paper towels and are ripped off every time the seedling is moved or the towel is opened – ouch. This opens the seed to secondary infections. When transplanting, it is very easy to bump the tap root tip and damage it or kill the seedling – Why? White paper towels may have bleach and other detrimental chemicals remaining from the manufacturing process.

Put the fresh or properly stored seed ½” deep in a Rapid Rooter, Root Riot, rock wool cube or similar or right in the soil. Jiffy peat pots PH is too low – buffer them before use. Keep moist – not wet, and ~80°F, 60% humidity with your blue (veg) lights on and they will germinate if viable. I use 25% strength week one nutrients with a little kelp to moisten my starter cubes. Most strains will germinate in 5 to 7 days. Some strains take longer than others. The African sativas can take 21+ days so be patient. If your seeds are not fresh or have been stored poorly an 8-hour soak in a weak kelp solution can encourage germination. Kelp has natural Gibberellic acid GA3 which is a growth stimulator.

@Mañ'O'Green you always give the best answers. You and @Aquaman on Thcfarmer know so much about everything growing. You have probably forgotten more than I know.

 

[Mañ'O'Green]

Hey thanks for the great information. I have taken some pictures of a currently failing seedling to show you. I couldn't quite get all the dirt off, hope it's easy enough to see. If the remaining dirt looks wet, it is because I swished the roots around in water trying to loosen the dirt. It doesn't look like anything too out of the ordinary in the root system to me at least, maybe I am missing something though. I will be starting again this week and try one of the germination methods you listed.

Yeah, those look like shit to me. The laterals are missing. Do you have any metal contact with your nutrient solutions at any time?

Get some Rapid Rooters or Root Riots, mix 1g of Megacrop 1part and 1/4g of kelp in 1 gallon of distilled water and moisten the starter cube with it. Gently squeeze out the excess fertilizer/water and plant a seed 1/2 inch deep. Place on a seed mat at 80°F with 80% RH (use a dome with holes if needed) put under the bluest lights you have 25% strength and far enough away that it does not raise the temperature under the cup. Run the lights 24/0 until the first set of true leaves then 18/6 gradually increasing light strength. Wet an unplanted cube and place it on the mat with a humidity dome if you used one on the planted cubes, heft it several times a day, when it starts to get light it is time to fertigate the cubes again. DO NOT lift the planted cubes. If the taproot has come out the bottom you can damage it. Use a mister to rewet them but don't get them soggy just try to get back to where they were when you planted the seeds. Most likely you will get germination before re-wetting is needed. When the first set of true leave are 1/2 - 1 inch across transplant to the pot they will grow in.

I was waiting for the other seeds to catch up and this Knows Candy seedling went 2 days longer than I like but this is what a healthy root system looks like on a starter cube. The leaves were almost 2" across.

Good Luck!

 

[coolno9]

Thank you so much for this information. I have to wait for a few things to arrive, but I will be trying this later this week. I will update when I know how the next run is looking.