Filial breeding through feminization

[AutoflowerAK]

Hello Everyone,

My following thoughts and questions are directed at experienced breeders, specifically those that utilize feminized breeding.

I wonder if there are any downsides to line breeding or filial breeding through selfing? I have heard that there is a decrease in vigor, but that is the same for non feminized in-bred lines as well.

I currently have some crosses at the F1 stage and I would like to get them to F3 fems. So I’m wondering if the best method is to make the F1 regs, and then do the reversal on the F2’s, or I can I do the reversal on the F1’s so when I’m running my pheno hunts on my F2’s, they are all fems and will give me more options for the female pheno selections for reversal for my F3 generation?

Anyway, let’s here everyone’s thoughts. Cheers

 

[parsing_trees]

Are you asking about all-female breeding, or selfing specifically (meaning, every generation you're reversing and pollinating the same plant)?

 

[AutoflowerAK]

Yeah, I was asking if there are any down falls in line breeding through selfing. Taking it to the S2, S3, S4. I would like to get rid of males altogether, but not if it comes at a detriment. So basically I want to make S4’s. Is it better to take it to F2, F3’s then self it, or can I start selfing it at the F1 S1’s stage, with no downsides?

 

[bakEQuatorial]

I was thinking the same. The limited info I gathered suggest that all fem breeding "may" cause recessive traits, that we may not want to surface. Some breeders confidently say fem crosses are inferior while others say they can't see a difference. I would love more info on this too. Hope more experienced growers will chime in with their thoughts.

 

[AutoflowerAK]

Well, from my understanding of the way genetics work, selfing plants wouldn’t make the recessive traits come out, and that wasn’t really my worry. If that was the case I’m sure more breeders would be using that trick to bring out some desirable recessive traits. I guess what I was getting at, I wonder if continually selfing a plant causes a lower vigor then normal filial inbreeding.

I was thinking the same. The limited info I gathered suggest that all fem breeding "may" cause recessive traits, that we may not want to surface. Some breeders confidently say fem crosses are inferior while others say they can't see a difference. I would love more info on this too. Hope more experienced growers will chime in with their thoughts.

 

[MesaBoogie]

I haven't noticed any difference in my selfed plants vs the original. I don't grow them out side by side on a large enough scale to 100% say there is no variance mind you. But if your doing it for personal and some friends yea it's fine. And I'm pretty sure , especially with auto's, it's how breeders mass produce their seeds once they have locked in the traits they want.

 

[AutoflowerAK]

Ok, that seems to make more sense to me. Do the normal filial breeding with a male, and once you’ve got a strain your happy with, then self it, so it never goes past S1’s.

I haven't noticed any difference in my selfed plants vs the original. I don't grow them out side by side on a large enough scale to 100% say there is no variance mind you. But if your doing it for personal and some friends yea it's fine. And I'm pretty sure , especially with auto's, it's how breeders mass produce their seeds once they have locked in the traits they want.

 

[MesaBoogie]

I was kind of thinking about this a bit and just to be clear so I'm not leading you down a wrong path, my experience with "selfing" is from already established genetics from reputable breeders. I'm going to assume/hope the genetics I'm selfing are likely at least a f3+. So it's possible I led you astray a bit as there could be a big difference in selfing a f3+ genetics and having stable outcomes and selfing F1's and seeing those same results locked in.

(edit) I just noticed this was posted in the infirmary. You would get a lot more attention to the subject if you had a moderator move it to the breeding section of the forum.

 

[parsing_trees]

Yeah, I was asking if there are any down falls in line breeding through selfing. Taking it to the S2, S3, S4. I would like to get rid of males altogether, but not if it comes at a detriment. So basically I want to make S4’s. Is it better to take it to F2, F3’s then self it, or can I start selfing it at the F1 S1’s stage, with no downsides?

You could do all-female breeding without selfing. Reverse one plant, pollinate other(s) of the same strain, and then keep selecting from those offspring. It will preserve a bit more of the genetic diversity of the line than selfing, which is inbreeding as quickly and aggressively as possible.

Selfing plants will absolutely make the recessive traits come out. I've heard of multiple breeders (in interviews with Ethos and Humboldt Seed Co., IIRC) mention selfing specifically because it makes the full expression of recessive traits pop out, and that way they can see everything happening within the line's gene pool. Granted, they're also growing them out in much larger quantities than you may plan to (hundreds), but breeding is going to need large plant counts anyway.

 

[AutoflowerAK]

Wow, that’s very interesting. I’m glad you made that distinction, because I was obviously using the term selfing wrong. Selfing, in the sense of an Autoflower would be reversing a branch on a plant, and allowing the branch to pollinate the same plant, where as with photos, they would use to clones. One for reversal, one for pollination, but same genotype.

Im glad you pointed that out, because I was referring feminized breeding and not selfing that whole time, because I would be selecting from larger populations, and Line breeding through the feminization process with multiple plants of the same strain.

You could do all-female breeding without selfing. Reverse one plant, pollinate other(s) of the same strain, and then keep selecting from those offspring. It will preserve a bit more of the genetic diversity of the line than selfing, which is inbreeding as quickly and aggressively as possible.

Selfing plants will absolutely make the recessive traits come out. I've heard of multiple breeders (in interviews with Ethos and Humboldt Seed Co., IIRC) mention selfing specifically because it makes the full expression of recessive traits pop out, and that way they can see everything happening within the line's gene pool. Granted, they're also growing them out in much larger quantities than you may plan to (hundreds), but breeding is going to need large plant counts anyway.